Evolution or not?

Just cite this book and retire from the field --

http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0743290313/ref=sr_1_34?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431016531&sr=1-34&keywords=anthropic+cosmological+principle

It's much easier than brow-beating your detractors with a stick.

Unless you have OCD for this silly thread.  Then full speed ahead, @E99.  

I do read the bible. Its the best comedy money doesn't have to buy. LOL

If we are the result of 15 billion years of evolution, there must be a better way to do it.

Evidently not.

Indeed, if the universe were much smaller, and younger, we wouldn't be here.

Unless, of course, the Earth is the center of the universe, and only ten or twenty thousand years old.  Then everything depends on when those "begattings" started.

Mankind descended rather quickly in that narrative.

P.S. there are plenty of cosmological design ideas from non-religious folks -- like Barrow and Tipler, and Brandon Carter (circa 1954).

Unfortnately, their ideas have not been part of this crazy (and coarse) discussion.  

I understand the fine tuning of the universe and our solar system, and specifically Earth Borgman. The mass charge of electrons and protons in comparison to the weak nuclear force is perfect. The strong nuclear force is perfect for the correct speed of fusion in the sun. Gravity is so fine tuned for the correct expansion of the universe that it can't be off by one part in ten raised to the hundredth power.

The amount of dark matter and dark energy is fined tuned even greater than gravity. Then you can get into how fined tuned earth is with Its correct mixture of gases, radiation belts, right distance from the sun, etc.

It would appear that we hit the cosmic lottery.

But alas, this thread is about evolution or not evolution, so I will have to digress.

I guess my next focus will shift to where the edge of evolution lies, getting sleepy them second here, signing off till tomorrow, Au Revoire. 😊

It is the universe expand or just relative distance between its stuffs grows larger ? To know this universe itself expanding,we should stand in the  other universe to measure it,right ?

Oh yeah extenza. In fact about 15 years ago two different groups experimentally determined that at about 5 billion light years out, dark energy was causing gravity to become a repulsive force, and the universe was expanding faster than previously thought. That was quite a shock to the scientific community. You'll have to talk to a physics expert to find out how far across the universe is but I believe the age is around 13.8 billion years old.

I wonder why you are too scared to address the issue at hand..........whether this design is due to nature or supernature.

If you were really interested in learning, then you would make attempts to do so. If you are not interested in learning(or simply can't), you will avoid all attempts.

Im starting to believe that you can't learn, but waiting for you to prove me wrong.

No, it appears we are alone, until shown othewise.  Very simple conclusion, to date.

That makes intelligent life on earth very special, until proven otherwise.  QED.

And people are free to construct whatever narrative and belief structure they wish to live into.

Why is this simple framework so hard for the radical zealots and scientism types ?

Instead, they insist on doing battle, eternally.  And insisting the other side must learn the TRUTH from them.

Yawn.

Im starting to think that you guys really have no science for your position. So far I've presented lots of scientific data for my position. All your side has presented is just-so stories, speculation, hypothetical scenarios, snake oil, lots of BS, and now the fur coat thing which I've explained as nonsense. If this was a game of chess, it was checkmate a long time ago.

If you guys can't come up with some real science for your position, I'm moving on to other material like physics.

The clocks ticking, time to put up or shut up. 😕

You need to return to carpentry, @E99.  Your classical rhetoric is sorely lacking.

You don't persuade.  Sorry.

That's because people either don't care about science or they can't understand it. I'm starting to think that people just can't grasp the implications of what I've been talking about. It takes a background in biochemistry and biology which I have to really understand the complex specificity of cellular systems and physiological structures of anatomy.

Also it takes an understanding of what random processes can accomplish and what they can't accomplish. It also takes time to delve into these matters and people just don't want to.

People would rather just spout something from someone's website than understand the material themselves, or worse just start calling people names like troll or other favorites. That's what people who have no grasp of the subject do.

I probably need to head to other sites where people at least have a rudimentary understanding of biochemistry and biology and who can intelligently discuss these matters. I'll give it one more shot though if I can find someone worthy of my time and efforts. 😕

There's no design. It's just the way the universe it.

A common mistake is this "we hit the lottery, damn nice we got a good universe and not one of the sucky ones where gravity doesnt work properly and elecromagnetism is badly balanced with the other forces"

In a lottery, there are say 1 million of possibilities that all exist, the lots are all real and then you get the good one.

With the universe, theres only ONE real universe. The "sucky" ones that we are "lucky not to get" dont exist, they are imagined ones, no more real than orcs or elves.

The lottery argument is like this: First you imagine stuff, like "there could be a lot of nasty orcs in my room trying to kill me now".

Then you forget the imaginary stuff is just something you made up, compare it with the real situation and then you go "so lucky my imaginary orcs are not here". But you are not more lucky becase you can dream up bad shit!

This mistake feeds off a normal human psychological thing, like when we are worried we lost our car keys and then reieven when we didnt loose them. People can extend this relief to feel relieved when they dicover thing that are dreamt up isnt true, like children can be happy, relieved, when you tell them that orcs or zombies are just made up.

There are no "bad" universes with sucky natural laws that we are lucky no to get. They dont exist. Theres just one universe, and the way it is is just is the way it is.

So this thread officially dies now?

@E99's perspective is a mismash of BOTH radical zealotry and scientism.

That's clearly a marriage made in HELL.

Scary Thoughts.

The disinterested reader should note that "No Politics or Religion" (post #1) was the same mantra used in @Elroch's nutty thread on this very same topic.

Indeed, note the video in post #499 in his tread --

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/the-science-of-evolution-no-politics-or-religion?page=25

Language (that eminently human quality, along with MIND and SOCIETY) is what separates us from the Great Apes.  Not "cooking."

When you can't conceputalize either MIND or Society, you're stuck with "cooking" as the force that brings about our great brains.  Duh ??

Scientism and the new Phreneology go hand in hand.  Then @Elroch and his wingmen block everyone who disagrees with them.  Neat trick, don't you think ?

These guys are joined at the rhetorical hip.  Somebody should check their DNA and measure the overlap !   

100%!

Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:

drpsholder wrote:

einstein99 wrote:

Oh yeah extenza. In fact about 15 years ago two different groups experimentally determined that at about 5 billion light years out, dark energy was causing gravity to become a repulsive force, and the universe was expanding faster than previously thought. That was quite a shock to the scientific community. You'll have to talk to a physics expert to find out how far across the universe is but I believe the age is around 13.8 billion years old.

I wonder why you are too scared to address the issue at hand..........whether this design is due to nature or supernature.

If you were really interested in learning, then you would make attempts to do so. If you are not interested in learning(or simply can't), you will avoid all attempts.

Im starting to believe that you can't learn, but waiting for you to prove me wrong.

There's no design. It's just the way the universe it.

A common mistake is this "we hit the lottery, damn nice we got a good universe and not one of the sucky ones where gravity doesnt work properly and elecromagnetism is badly balanced with the other forces"

In a lottery, there are say 1 million of possibilities that all exist, the lots are all real and then you get the good one.

With the universe, theres only ONE real universe. The "sucky" ones that we are "lucky not to get" dont exist, they are imagined ones, no more real than orcs or elves.

The lottery argument is like this: First you imagine stuff, like "there could be a lot of nasty orcs in my room trying to kill me now".

Then you forget the imaginary stuff is just something you made up, compare it with the real situation and then you go "so lucky my imaginary orcs are not here". But you are not more lucky becase you can dream up bad shit!

This mistake feeds off a normal human psychological thing, like when we are worried we lost our car keys and then reieven when we didnt loose them. People can extend this relief to feel relieved when they dicover thing that are dreamt up isnt true, like children can be happy, relieved, when you tell them that orcs or zombies are just made up.

There are no "bad" universes with sucky natural laws that we are lucky no to get. They dont exist. Theres just one universe, and the way it is is just is the way it is.

My point is to show them that if you consider this universe as designed.......then that doesnt mean it was designed by a sky daddy. It could have been, and was, designed by natural processes, not supernatural processes.

I await their evidence that MAC daddy sky was this designer, and it looks like I will be waiting a long time, because the have none. We have evidence of natural processes, but none for supernatural processes. Just lots of hopes and desires. LoL

Scientism? 😃 Zealotry? not so much any more Borg man. When I was younger yeah. Age diminishes that for most people. I look for people who are interested and then I talk with them. As long as there are people looking for the truth then I'll be around. Muhammad and extenza are so I might stick around for their benefits. Its a lot of work sifting through all the debris out here to find the gold nuggets, but I guess I'm just too stubborn or to stupid to quit trying.

Maybe I just care too much and think I can make a difference in the world. I guess as long as I have breath in me I shall continue to try and spread truth throughout the land.

Onward and upward...........

Scared! LOL  I wonder why you are too scared to tell us what this designer is?

Someone that is honest and interested in learning would have no problem, but for some very strange reason you do?