I fully agree. In fact, let's kick out the free members completely. Chess is after all a game of the elite, and we do not need these freeloaders around...
Proposed Vacation Abuse Solution
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RetGuvvie98 wrote: Sounds appropriate to me. is it difficult to program that? free members should not enjoy the same privileges as paying members (imho).
sorry for be poor and cant pay the fee ... cause i have no money i will get 5 days vacation ... money talk ... by the way i never gat vacations yet ... and, if people do that, dont play against them again ...
erik wrote:
what does surprise me is that more people DON'T pay when they are spending hours and hours per day on the site. seems kinda odd.
What seems odd about that? There is so much here that is free, it's pretty easy to spend hours here without paying. You could spend hours just keeping up with your free games, let alone a little interaction on the forums, reading a couple articles or blogs, 15-30 minutes on Tactics Trainer. It doesn't surprise me at all that people come here for a couple hours and don't pay a dime. Wait, you don't expect them to pay out of some sense of duty do you? ;-)
Seriously, people pay for content, they don't make donations. That's just how the world works, it's pretty basic economics.
I don't consider non-paying members free loaders because non-paying members still contribute to the site. The value of the site comes in being able to play games with people and interact with them on the forums. If you made all the non-paying members leave, the value of the paid memberships wouldn't be nearly what it is. I think Erik understands this, I don't know why RetGuvvie has such hatred for non-paying members.
Seems to me that if some people are abusing the vacation option in order to delay losing games, it will take care of itself, eventually. They can't delay it forever. It is not a problem for me, but for the sake of those who have other things come up such that they cannot log on to the website for extended periods of time (more than 3 days, for most, if not all, tournaments, for example) perhaps the system should be left as it is currently set up.
In order to give other players time to deal with other obligations, computer breakdowns, etc., I usually use the 14 day turn option when I issue challenges. Perhaps if some players had more time to make moves, they would not feel the need to use the vacation option as much.
(Also, for me, if I win a game, I want it to be because I won the game on the board; not because the other player simply ran out of time, perhaps due to a computer breakdown, or some other reason which has nothing to do with the skill of the play on the board.)
Just my opinion. 
I'm inclined to disagree with you, erik. i think that it's mostly experienced users that figure out ways to abuse their vacation time, and that beginners are really most interested in playing chess, not ratings. Also there's the difficulty of newbie users who join only a few days before their vacations. I for one can't play for about one 25-hour period a week and if i have one vacation day for every ten days that i'm on i'll simply lose any games that i'm playing with 24 hour limits (assuming the person moves in the first hour that i can't play - which, believe me, happens often). Now, i love the fact that you guys have a vacation time to begin with; it's a great idea, but i think it's best kept the way it is.
retguvvie, don't get me wrong, i'd pay if i could - i love chess.com (and unlimited tactics trainer IS very appealing). there's always the possibility of ads, erik - you're absolutely right. the fact that the site is free AND great attracts users and builds its desirability for potential advertisers.
beane> I for one can't play for about one 25-hour period a week and if i have one vacation day for every ten days that i'm on i'll simply lose any game ... with 24 hour limits.
What would solve this dilemma is a flexible time control like "5 moves / 7 days". I normally like to play 1 move / day, but on weekends I would prefer to have the freedom to not make a move without having to use vacation days. At least some players feel forced to play "1 move / 3 days" so they can have their weekends off, and then get bent out of shape when their opponents use their full time per move.
beane wrote: I for one can't play for about one 25-hour period a week and if i have one vacation day for every ten days that i'm on i'll simply lose any games that i'm playing with 24 hour limits
If you're taking a day of vacation every week, you're going to be timing out on these games at the end of the year under the current system because you need 52 vacation days and you only get 40. Read Erik's proposal carefully, your total vacation days will not be less. A player in your situation needs to know they can't play 1 day per move games.
I agree completely, Erik and his staff have done a fantastic job, and deserve to be compensated for their work having said that we all know some people want everything handed to them. Right now i am still playing for free, but intend to change that very soon, my wife and i are personally funding the Humane society in our area since no one else seems to care so i know how it feels to finance the whole thing. As for Kingfisher he states chess is a game for the elite and we should dump the freeloaders, does he not realise that he is included in said freeloaders, as i see no icon by his name. Great site Erik thank you and i will help sponsor it in the very near future.
RetGuvvie98 wrote: mr_martin wrote:
seems like a good idea, but what about people who signup like one or two months before their vacation?
oh well, my 2 cents.
Do you have those two cents, or did you use them ojn chess.com?
Markle wrote:
As for Kingfisher he states chess is a game for the elite and we should dump the freeloaders, does he not realise that he is included in said freeloaders, as i see no icon by his name.
Kingfisher was using a literary device called Satire.
I concur that this is a great site. Kudos. I'm seriously thinking of becoming a member although a middle class income doesn't go as far as it used to. I agree that paying membership should obviously have its quirks. I also think that instead of marking the tempo of a game using a move per day(s) it might supplanted by a game per time period ie: 30 days etc... Just a thought!
However, in order to combat the abuse of vacation time to stall or throw off another player perhaps you can make certain that the player who asks for a vacation not choose say to call for vacation time and then come back (within hours) to play a pivotal move because they need to know what your next strategic move is only to go back on vacation time once they find out.
First - when you call for vacation time all your ongoing games should be suspended. You shouldn't be able to choose which to suspend and which to pursue.
Secondly, you might give the player asking or who needs to take vacation time to make a selection (i.e. 3 days, 5 days, 7 days -- etcetera...) as to how much time they must perforce take once they make the selection. This way if they have to take the full allotted time they will be less likely to use this function as a game ploy since they will quickly use up their time and not be able to use it if and when they really need it.
Just my .02 -- for what they are worth. Thanks for the site and tolerating freeloaders like me.
erik wrote:
well, this topic has taken a left turn :)
i personally don't agree with RetGuvvie98. i understand some people can't or won't pay (i think the can't is a small number though). what does surprise me is that more people DON'T pay when they are spending hours and hours per day on the site. seems kinda odd.
anyway, we will be adding more and more ads to the site over time. making money just isn't top priority - building the best online experience is. we'll start putting bunches of ads up for non-paying members soon enough (though no popups - popups are just evil).
good way to go
Loomis you're absolutely right - i'm not always playing 1 day games. sometimes i forget to look at the time limit and realize only when it's too late to abort the game. i was pretty much banking on spending only 40 weeks in such a situation. if, starting from the beginning of the year, i play 40 weeks straight with a vacation day a week, then under the currect system, i'm fine. if we do switch to the proposed system, i'll have only gained 40x7=280/10=28 days in that time period, not enough to pull those 40 weeks.
i like beowulf's second suggestion a lot
Mar 23, 2008
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#37
Schachgeek wrote:
I agree, this is a FANTASTIC site and I hope to join the ranks of paying members very soon.
But I don't agree that you have to make a move and then go on vacation. You should be able to set your games on vacation globally, ie all of the games at once regardless of whose turn it is. For example, I work for a Fire Department. If suddenly I am deployed 400 miles from home to fight wildfires in Southern California, you can bet that many of those remote areas and campgrounds do not have internet access or maybe they used to have internet - until the wires and poles burned down! Or if I have to travel on short notice for a family emergency. No doubt there are other professions that require employees to travel or relocate on short notice (like, the military). Some of my chess friends play quickly, others use their reflection time fully and that is their right. But if my boss says go, I'm supposed to tell him I can't because I have to wait a week for all my games to go on vacation? Doesn't work for me.premium members do not have to move in all of their games before they go on vacation.
Mar 23, 2008
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#38
Schachgeek wrote:
I agree, this is a FANTASTIC site and I hope to join the ranks of paying members very soon.
But I don't agree that you have to make a move and then go on vacation. You should be able to set your games on vacation globally, ie all of the games at once regardless of whose turn it is. For example, I work for a Fire Department. If suddenly I am deployed 400 miles from home to fight wildfires in Southern California, you can bet that many of those remote areas and campgrounds do not have internet access or maybe they used to have internet - until the wires and poles burned down! Or if I have to travel on short notice for a family emergency. No doubt there are other professions that require employees to travel or relocate on short notice (like, the military). Some of my chess friends play quickly, others use their reflection time fully and that is their right. But if my boss says go, I'm supposed to tell him I can't because I have to wait a week for all my games to go on vacation? Doesn't work for me.Something like this (job/military/family_time) is more important than chess ratings. If chess ratings are really that important, you'll find a way to get internet access or plan ahead like many members already mentioned. Just my little POV. ^^
The plan sounds fine to me, but have you thought of member points? Maybe having more than X member points give you extra vacation days. It seems to me that member points can be figured into a lot more things. That way members who don't or can't pay can be recognized.
Having a car load of points seems like it should count for minor privileges because points represent the contribution of content to the site, and that intellectual property is worth something. It contributes to drawing even more people here.
I plan to take a two week holiday in the summer to America. This has been planned since last summer and there is nothing I can do to get out of it. Now imagine you have just joined chess.com in the summer holidays (which I see as likely as people will have more time to spare/ looking for a new hobby) so you only have your first 5 days. You will not have enough chess filled days in which to build up two weeks of vacation time in. Can you see that many people would be in this situation?
So overall I'm against the change. I still struggle to understand what the problem is with the present system- people can't postpone games indefinately.
well, this topic has taken a left turn :)
i personally don't agree with RetGuvvie98. i understand some people can't or won't pay (i think the can't is a small number though). what does surprise me is that more people DON'T pay when they are spending hours and hours per day on the site. seems kinda odd.
anyway, we will be adding more and more ads to the site over time. making money just isn't top priority - building the best online experience is. we'll start putting bunches of ads up for non-paying members soon enough (though no popups - popups are just evil).
Hey Eric, I admire your attitude... but don't be appologetic about making money! Like I've said, you have truly done an amazing job on the site, and you deserve to enjoy the benifits... and I think most people on here feel the same way :) I think adding more ads is only fair, and particularly google text ads, no one would mind those at all. So, the sooner the better... ;)