The forgiving part was in response to Bird.
My point is that while this guy may very well be the best of the bad bunch, he should in no way recive more credit (which I believe he is here) than the 1000's of players that have never set a foot wrong.
Response from Caught Cheater - Worth Reading
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Aug 10, 2009
0
#43
Donald_Lee wrote:
BirdBrain wrote
...But we aren't really giving a lot of credit to one fellow - sure, we are praising what he did - an apology for cheating.
An apology by an engine user in online chess is not original, nor praiseworthy. Maybe erik and crew receive few if any, however there is at least one website dedicated to cheating at online chess and what to say when caught.
This guys email will make their next cover story.
Are you jealous that you aren't getting the attention that this issue is getting? Forget who it is about for a minute. Have you never made a mistake ever? Maybe not. But one day you will, and you will want to be able to apologize.
And I am glad to see that the site is working against cheating at chess. Personally, I don't like seeing people cheat. It is a poor choice, and aggravating at that. But in spite of that, I cannot condemn a person who is asking for forgiveness...if you want to, go ahead. But not me.
He doesn't deserve it. I have had my say and will not comment further.
Aug 10, 2009
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#45
Suggo wrote:
Bird, you are praising him, and it is praise, heard praise like this, that I believe every single player on this site that has never cheated deserves before this guy!
If forgiving means he doesn't have to suffer the consequences of his actions I vote NO.
If you want to say praise in the context of asking for an apology, yes, I am. Do you have any teenagers? Maybe when they wreck your car after you told them not to drive too fast, you can ostracize them. An apology is an apology.
You obviously would treat the account differently, but even with him not coming back, why take everything good he did and throw it away? Did you know that Diemer was part of the Nazi party? Should we throw away the BDG? Or that Alekhine was accused of being associated with Nazis? Or that Fischer bashed his own country? People make choices.
I cannot bring myself to continue to make him out to be an outlaw...he apologized, and I forgive him. If you made a mistake and apologized, I would forgive you too.
Aug 10, 2009
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#46
Thank you chess_kebabs for doing that for me...it means a lot to me, and I am sure it means a lot to him also.
Teenagers are full of empty apologies, BirdBrain.
ih8sens wrote:
He loved chess...
No, he didn't. If he loved chess, he wouldn't have cheated. He stopped playing chess, and started playing "which is the best engine." Maybe he should start an engine only chess site.
Aug 10, 2009
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#49
bigpoison wrote:
Teenagers are full of empty apologies, BirdBrain.
Would you know from experience? You never had a genuine apology when you were a teenager? I did. As a matter of fact, I had a great change in my life when I became a teenager, and if it would not have been for certain people during a crucial period of my life, I easily could have went down the wrong road.
You never know the effect that some forgiveness can have on someone's life. I am not telling you that you have to let people walk all over you. But it is not a bad idea to forgive people, even if the apology was not full-blown. In the instance I brought up about a kid wrecking the car, I would forgive them. But if it was based on wreckless driving, no more vehicles for a time - possibly until 18.
But that goes with this site as well. Do we allow someone back on who has apologized after cheating? I don't see it going that way. But in spite of that, I cannot just cast him away.
Aug 10, 2009
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#50
FirebrandX wrote:Before I came to chess.com, I had cheated on another site. My misguided reasoning was I wanted to self-righteously prove the top players were all cheating by getting into matches with them and then out-calculating their computers with my own centaur skills I developed on ICCF. In the end, I found indeed all the top players were in fact cheating on that site, and I was quite disgusted.
I appreciate your candid honesty, Firebrand - a needed breath of fresh air on this site - and I appreciate your "newfound" honest level of play...
BirdBrain wrote:
bigpoison wrote:
Teenagers are full of empty apologies, BirdBrain.
Would you know from experience? You never had a genuine apology when you were a teenager? I did. As a matter of fact, I had a great change in my life when I became a teenager, and if it would not have been for certain people during a crucial period of my life, I easily could have went down the wrong road.
You never know the effect that some forgiveness can have on someone's life. I am not telling you that you have to let people walk all over you. But it is not a bad idea to forgive people, even if the apology was not full-blown. In the instance I brought up about a kid wrecking the car, I would forgive them. But if it was based on wreckless driving, no more vehicles for a time - possibly until 18.
But that goes with this site as well. Do we allow someone back on who has apologized after cheating? I don't see it going that way. But in spite of that, I cannot just cast him away.
Yes, I know from experience. I briefly taught in middle school. An apology for an action one day, accompanied by tears and all. The next week, the same damned action. An apology is only sincere when the action being apologized for is not repeated.
bigpoison wrote:
BirdBrain wrote:
bigpoison wrote:
Teenagers are full of empty apologies, BirdBrain.
Would you know from experience? You never had a genuine apology when you were a teenager? I did. As a matter of fact, I had a great change in my life when I became a teenager, and if it would not have been for certain people during a crucial period of my life, I easily could have went down the wrong road.
You never know the effect that some forgiveness can have on someone's life. I am not telling you that you have to let people walk all over you. But it is not a bad idea to forgive people, even if the apology was not full-blown. In the instance I brought up about a kid wrecking the car, I would forgive them. But if it was based on wreckless driving, no more vehicles for a time - possibly until 18.
But that goes with this site as well. Do we allow someone back on who has apologized after cheating? I don't see it going that way. But in spite of that, I cannot just cast him away.
Yes, I know from experience. I briefly taught in middle school. An apology for an action one day, accompanied by tears and all. The next week, the same damned action. An apology is only sincere when the action being apologized for is not repeated.
That's teenagers in general, sincere apologies, no common sense... (I'm a teen myself...)
Aug 10, 2009
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#53
bigpoison wrote:
Yes, I know from experience. I briefly taught in middle school. An apology for an action one day, accompanied by tears and all. The next week, the same damned action. An apology is only sincere when the action being apologized for is not repeated.
Not all apologies are that way. I know before I got some genuine help, I would have been one of the people you spoke with. But it doesn't take into context the environment that the child is raised in. You should be well aware that many children are raised in poor environments and need help. Without help, I would probably not be here on chess.com today...I'll leave it at that.
You had an opportunity as a teacher to touch people's lives at an early age, a pivotal age. What you did for them could affect them for life. I can personally attest to that with my 6th grade teachers coming together to help me at a critical time in my life. I still remember it, and it has made a difference for me.
Put him on probation, knowing he is being watched.
Aug 10, 2009
0
#55
some of my most poignant learning experiences were with mistakes as a kid. i'm sure that many (most?) apologies are insincere, but i felt that this one was sincere.
that said, the main point of the message was: don't end up like this guy - don't start cheating.
rookandladder wrote:
ih8sens wrote:
He loved chess...
No, he didn't. If he loved chess, he wouldn't have cheated. He stopped playing chess, and started playing "which is the best engine." Maybe he should start an engine only chess site.
You are an incredibly ignorant person if you genuinely believe that. I have a suspicion you're saying it largely because we're on the internet and not face to face with Anton himself.
Lizard87 loved chess, I'll repeat it.
For one, he was a regular volunteer here at chess.com, secondly, even during his 'cheating phase', which I am confident is now over, he regularly played 'training games' with myself and others, interested in learning new ideas and theories.
We're not talking about some patzer here, Lizard is a strong, dedicated player. Sadly he fell into a powerful trap... fighting an obsession with perfection and knowing that 'perfection' is a couple mouseclicks away... it has to be painful.
ih8sens wrote:
rookandladder wrote:
ih8sens wrote:
He loved chess...
No, he didn't. If he loved chess, he wouldn't have cheated. He stopped playing chess, and started playing "which is the best engine." Maybe he should start an engine only chess site.
You are an incredibly ignorant person if you genuinely believe that. I have a suspicion you're saying it largely because we're on the internet and not face to face with Anton himself.
Lizard87 loved chess, I'll repeat it.
For one, he was a regular volunteer here at chess.com, secondly, even during his 'cheating phase', which I am confident is now over, he regularly played 'training games' with myself and others, interested in learning new ideas and theories.
We're not talking about some patzer here, Lizard is a strong, dedicated player. Sadly he fell into a powerful trap... fighting an obsession with perfection and knowing that 'perfection' is a couple mouseclicks away... it has to be painful.
If you love a game, you don't sully it and help to destroy it by cheating. Sounds like, at least for a time, his love of chess was second to his love of winning. Happens all the time (see baseball steroids).
Rookandladder, people who take steriods love what they do too... I assure you they don't love the steroids. What they do (steriods) is wrong, and certainly is no good for the game, but it doesn't mean they don't love it. The will to win is all part of the game/sport and unfortunately it can cause some serious problems.
At the same time you're wrong if you believe Anton didn't love chess.
We close many accounts each day for computer cheating on Chess.com. Generally people get very very angry about it and email back to deny it and blah blah blah (always the same thing). But today we received a different response and I wanted to share it for 2 reasons: first, a warning to those who are tempted to cheat; and second, to show an example of maturity in someone who is man enough to own up to his decisions.
According to his first statement, he does not receive many apologies. And even at that, this person did more than the average player - he must have contributed to the site in other ways.
I cant help it that erik and crew dont receive many apologies from cheaters.
Regardless of that, it is not an anomaly in online chess.