What is my chance of beating a Grandmaster

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Lamaw
I had a fide rating of about 1835 that was 7 years ago. I was never active on real tournament now. With that rating what is my chance of beating a 2500 grandmaster? My informal calculations and guess I always do is in every point of 100=1 pawn. So my chance of beating a grandmaster could be a handicap of 700 points=7 pawns. Or a rook and two pawns or bishop,knight and a pawn. Whats your calculations?
HorsesGalore

If the GM is of sound mind  and you give him/her  at least 15 minutes for the game, the probability of you defeating the GM is about 1 in a million.     

However, if the GM has less than 2 minutes for the entire game, then you stand a chance of them screwing up.   That is about the only type chance you have,ie; you will not outplay them.    they have to make a major blunder.

Lamaw
Beating world champion GM Magnus Carlsen, he will give me at least 10 points handicap in an even time game. A queen and a pawn or at least 2 rooks.
HorsesGalore

When World Champion to be Capablanca was 4 years and 10 months old, he was given Queen odds by a Master player.    Jose won without a problem.    

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1481959

mariners234
Lamaw wrote:
I had a fide rating of about 1835 that was 7 years ago. I was never active on real tournament now. With that rating what is my chance of beating a 2500 grandmaster? My informal calculations and guess I always do is in every point of 100=1 pawn. So my chance of beating a grandmaster could be a handicap of 700 points=7 pawns. Or a rook and two pawns or bishop,knight and a pawn. Whats your calculations?

Handicap and odds are two different things.

First of all, the value of a handicap depends on the strength of the player receiving the handicap. For example playing a beginner down a queen may only boost their rating 50 points, but playing a GM down a pawn is easily worth a few 100 rating points.

A knight to an 1800 player is about 400-500 points, so you could win a game, but you'd probably lose a match.

---

Odds are actually built into the rating system... although they're not accurate in the extremes, you'd have less than 1% chance of winning a match.

BonTheCat

I'm not a statistician, and haven't studied mathematics since I went to school, but I dare say the chances of an E1800 player defeating an E2500 grandmaster are significantly higher than about 1 in a million - at normal time controls. When I was about E1800, I defeated an IM rated about E2400, and in that same tournament there was a GM who lost against an E1900. (Now, a GM with anything between 2 to 15 minutes on the clock, against an opponent playing say 40/2h, is likely to lose a great many games.)

The wide drawing margin in chess means that in order to win a game your opponent will have to make quite a number of minor slips or drop a real clanger. However, this obviously works both ways. A GM is not interested in drawing against an 1800 player, and therefore is likely to try very hard to win, sometimes leading to him/her overpressing.

mariners234

Yeah, the chances are better than one in a million.

For example

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1377482

Lamaw
So its still better chance than putting money on lottery for an E1800. But like nearly .001% on winning chance. Need to play a very drunk GM.
BonTheCat
DamonevicSmithlov wrote:

The difference u pointed out is 635 points. There r different sites to calculate the win expectancy for u based on the fide rating difference. Just guessing I'm gonna say it's more than 1% and under 5%. I'll guess 2.2% chance u'll win. Somebody go check it out.

Someone (Jeff Sonas?) a few years ago compared the expectancy against actual results, and found that the expectancy was off by quite some margin. The lower rated player tended to do better than expected, and the deviation was even more marked at more extreme rating differences. This was published on ChessBase, but I can't find the article right now.

BonTheCat
DamonevicSmithlov wrote:

Has a rating formula been tinkered with or created to reflect his statistical analysis?

Don't remember, but I think so. I know that they've changed the k factor in recent years.

 

BonTheCat
baconandeggz wrote:

100 points is not a pawn. otherwise I would beat magnus 10-0

In 2001, Terry Chapman, E2200-2250 at the time, played a four-game charity match Gary Kasparov with the former world champ giving him the odds of two pawns. Kasparov only won 2½-1½ (+2, -1, =1). http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?pid=58505&pid2=15940

Chapman was an England junior squad member in the 1970s (and nowadays he's a regular member of the England teams competing in the World and European Senior Teams Championships), so clearly not a mug by any means, but Kasparov was still rated some 600 points higher. It doesn't actually take much in terms of material to even out the odds considerably.

Lamaw
Is there any GM here make a good guess on how many odds/handicap they can give to a lower rating player below 2200 and above 2200 but not more than 2400. Thanks.
drmrboss
Lamaw wrote:
I had a fide rating of about 1835 that was 7 years ago. I was never active on real tournament now. With that rating what is my chance of beating a 2500 grandmaster? My informal calculations and guess I always do is in every point of 100=1 pawn. So my chance of beating a grandmaster could be a handicap of 700 points=7 pawns. Or a rook and two pawns or bishop,knight and a pawn. Whats your calculations?

Your odd of winning against +665 elo higher rated opponent is 1 in 46. ( excluding the draws). The odds can be higher up to 1:100 or 1:200 if we include the draws.

 

Your chance of pairing against a GM in a tournment will be in 9 to 11 round swiss system. So everyone is taking risks( risky opening, complicated lines) to beat everyone to get the prizes.

 

Realistically your odd can be 1:100 .( I need to get  draw odd data to calculate accurately).

Lamaw
Many years ago I played a fide master 2280 on a blitz game and he gave me an odds of 5:1. 5 minutes for me one minute for him just for a fun game, and the results were devastating, I manage to win only two games out of 33, he just using my time.
drmrboss
DamonevicSmithlov wrote:

I typed 635 when it was 665. So the win expectancy is 2.13%, is that correct drmrboss? My guess of 2.2% wasn't far off. I thought the win expectancy would be closer to 1% than 5% being in the 600's.

As I explained above, that odd exclude draw.

 

In fact if we include draw ratio, ( lets us says draw odds among 2800 GM is 90%), then a 2800 rated GM beating another 2800 become 5% chance, rather than 50%.

BonTheCat
DamonevicSmithlov wrote:

Also, I think Magnus Carlsen gave Lawrence Trent (British IM) rook odds in about 5 blitz games I think and the score was maybe 4-1 in Maggies favor. Somebody on here might have more details. I bet there is a list somewhere detailing how much material is worth how many rating points.

Apart from the fact that we're talking the world champion, and one of the world's best blitz players, arguably rook odds are better for the player giving the odds than the one receiving it. Rooks tend to enter the game much longer after bishops and knights, and typically don't come into their own until the endgame. I strongly suspect that Trent would have had a much better chance had Carlsen instead given odds of just a bishop or a knight. Had Trent been given the odds of bishop and knight (by 'point count' only marginally better than a rook, but vastly superior in the middle-game) he probably would have won 5-0.

MorphysMayhem
Lamaw wrote:
I had a fide rating of about 1835 that was 7 years ago. I was never active on real tournament now. With that rating what is my chance of beating a 2500 grandmaster? My informal calculations and guess I always do is in every point of 100=1 pawn. So my chance of beating a grandmaster could be a handicap of 700 points=7 pawns. Or a rook and two pawns or bishop,knight and a pawn. Whats your calculations?

There are mathematical formulas that can be more precise than all the speculation and who-ha being offered up by well wishing but Naive players.

This is not exact, but close enough. a 200 point rating difference gives the higher rated player about a 75% chance of winning any particular game. Therefore the probability of a higher rated player winning if they are rated 800 points higher is approximately 1 - (1/4)^4 or .996. 

 

Meaning the lower rated player has a win expectancy of about .004. This means you would be expected to win one game (or get two draws) for every 250 games played. 

 

so your chances of a win are actually a bit higher than some of the folks allege. 

BonTheCat

Morphys-Revenge: Are you sure that's the current expectancy? That sounds very much like the original calculations by prof. Elo, and they've been revised numerous times since they were introduced.