2 pawn up Rook endgame

Just_A_Nerd

It is embarrassing to have both lost this and having to ask how to win but I want get better at chess (especially endgames) so...

What is the winning procedure after about black's 33rd/34th move:

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

i feel as if ur pawns would be further up the board then ur blunder could still make a draw.

so with white to move...not sure

 

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

take that back. i think post #2 is still a win for black.

tho i feel this may be a draw for white...as i cant find a petite combination.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

if black can achieve this setup ?...then black wins...

 

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

so in the above, white to move just loses. w/ black to move ?....black loses a tempo w/ 1...Rh6 ! 

cuz white cant afford the 2...Rxf6+ as the king tries to camp on f5.

so. black gets the time needed as it can get to f7 and then they caboose their rook around to g1 w/ ease.    

i-shot-the-sheriff

great endgame play, Lola thumbup.png

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

well, its all JAN's fault lol ! as they took me down the rabbit hole tryn2figure out if 2 conn pawns vs Rook can hold a draw. still not exactly sure but feeling fuzzier happy.png .

rg8check

This is a much more difficult position to win than it first appears. I haven't found a clear idea that  results with a win yet. Stockfish's idea is to place the rook on a8, bring the pawn up to a7, and eventually trade off the pawn on a7 for one or both of black's pawns.

I think Stockfish is wrong because black is not forced to advance the g and h pawns. Here's an example line where black does not move those pawns.

About a similar position, shown below, Reuben Fine says, "White has winning chances in positions analogous to [Diagram shown below] in two cases: when the Black pawns are too far advanced or too widely scattered and are thus subject to capture, or when (usually with pawns other than a rook pawn) White can afford to give up one pawn on the kingside, blockade the remaining pawns, and win his opponent's rook.

Once his pawn is on the seventh, White must be two pawns ahead to win, and the other pawn must be able to lure the black king out of its corner, which is why it must not be a rook pawn or a knight pawn. "

Black to play. Drawn.

So long as black doesn't advance any pawns, I don't think they will become too extended. Nor do I think you will be able to blockade them. For these reasons, I expect it to be drawn. I hope someone more knowledgeable can confirm or deny this.

Nerwal

On general ground White should not play 44. a7 but keep the pawn at a6 and try first to bring the king up with 44.Kf3, because the square on a7 is useful either to hide the king there or to play Ra7+ to push back the black king if the white king tries to wins space or pawns on the kingside. Pushing the pawn to a7 with a rook at a8 is only done when a forced win can be calculated precisely.

Laskersnephew

In your line, you are correct that white would need to have an f-pawn to win if he had advanced his pawn to a7.  But at the end of your line white's pawn is on a6, and I think that gives him far better winning chances

tacticspotter
Thee_Ghostess_Lola 写道:

take that back. i think post #2 is still a win for black.

tho i feel this may be a draw for white...as i cant find a petite combination.

Move 3 Rxf6

tacticspotter

and black wins

SNUDOO

I think you shouldn't have played a7. Then, your king would be able to hide at a7, so then your objective would be to trade off the pawns on the kingside and you'd be able to win, I think.

I haven't studied endgames a lot so it might not be right, black might be able to draw since it's a rook pawn. But if you have a pawn on the kingside after that then you should be able to win after lots of moves.

Calsuk
One of the most important things to do in that position is to get your rook behind your passed pawn, and since you weren’t able to do that, your chances of winning went down. Pushing your pawn all the way to a7 was probably a mistake though. In that position with your pawn on a7 and your rook blocking your pawn, you can win if you trade of your passed pawn for one of your opponent’s pawns, or if you manage to get a passed f pawn. (I don’t feel like explaining why right now.) Jeremy Silman’s endgame book has lots of interesting stuff about how that works.
pfren
Thee_Ghostess_Lola έγραψε:

take that back. i think post #2 is still a win for black.

tho i feel this may be a draw for white...as i cant find a petite combination.

 

Are you joking? The f6 pawn drops with check at move three, and Black can easily force something like that by playing a waiting move with the rook on the sixth.

Babbling_Rook

(I'm not very experienced, but) I think the general strategy in this kind of position is to use your pawns to force black's king away from g7/h7. Consider black's limitations:

1. If black's king ever leaves the 7th rank and moves to the 6th rank, this allows a rook check followed by promotion, followed by black rook takes queen, followed by white rook takes black rook, and white wins.

2. If black's king ever leaves g7/h7 by moving to f7, this allows white to play Rh8. This threatens either promotion on a8 (same outcome as point 1), or if black's rook takes the pawn on a7 then white skewers the king with Rh7+ and wins the rook on a7.

Black's king could probably blockade the g & h pawns, so I think the strategy here would be to make sure your f pawn comes through the fight with black's pawns. Black can take the f pawn with neither the king nor the rook (unless white's king is so unfortunately placed to allow a check when rook takes so that black's rook can return to the a file).

I think it was a mistake to try to move your king to "help out" the promoting pawn on moves 52-56. The white king can never help the a7 pawn promote as black's rook can always alternate between checking on a1/b1. As others have said, if the pawn were on a6 instead of a7 then white's king could get to a7 and help promotion, though it's worth bearing in mind that without the pawn on a7, black's king is not restricted to g7/h7 as explained above.

Ripley_Osbourne

In any case you don't want to end up with a pawn f and a pawn h (+rook) against a rook, it'd be most certainly a draw...

Of course black king must be on the way, and black rook ready to check from behind (spare me jokes about "from behind", thank you). Well, more or less. I discovered that ending OTB "real time", saving a lost game as the defender, long time ago.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola
pfren wrote:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola έγραψε:

take that back. i think post #2 is still a win for black.

tho i feel this may be a draw for white...as i cant find a petite combination.

 

Are you joking? The f6 pawn drops with check at move three, and Black can easily force something like that by playing a waiting move with the rook on the sixth.

yes. sorry. forgot2correct post #3. 

i-shot-the-sheriff

just seeing if pfren was awake of course.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

my guess is that he passed out ouzo and s/o cut his hair. probably cant play as good now. but he did find the error in #3...so kudos ! my frien happy.png .