How to win this endgame?

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KnightKlub

I'm just starting to study the endgame and most of my games are still won or lost in the middlegame. But here is a position that I reached against Shredder 12 set at ~1580 Elo. Game continued

29. Re4 0-0
30. Rxa7 Rfc8
31. Rxe5 Rxc4
32. g3 Rc1+
33. Kg2 Ra1

And my offer of a draw was accepted. I can't see how to protect the rook pawn while it queens and black's rooks are getting active.

What is the correct procedure for winning this endgame? Thanks for any advice I can get!

KnightKlub
tonydal wrote:

Your question assumes there is a win for White.  That may not be the case.


With a lead in development that got me to an extra pawn I am definitely assuming a win for white. If there is a draw/win for black I really need to learn more about the endgame. Laughing

TheOldReb

34 Ree7 Rf8  and  34 Rf5 Rf8  and white has a big advantage but is it winning ?  Such rook endings take great technique to win and even GMs often misplay such endings. Black can hope to draw but not more . If you lose your a pawn it increases the chances for a draw and also if you trade a pair of rooks the chances of a draw increase.

boymaster

I think 34. Rc5 Rf8 35. Ree7 and then a5,a6, king advances to queenside then promote is good enough.

orangehonda

Hmm, after the set of moves you gave I don't see how white can force a win... I would play on in a tournament because like the NMs say it's complicated.  Agree about a set of rook exchanges too.

After either of reb's moves, would 35. g4 be out of line?  I know that's more common with one set of rooks.  In any case I don't think the advantage of the a pawn alone is enough to win, you'd have to prove the activity of the rooks adds enough to your advantage by creating some play on the king side as well... at least that's my impression of it.

jeffdorog

i see it white has winning.....

JG27Pyth

I am honestly startled that the NMs don't see a clear win -- this is the kind of position that I look at and think: "I wish I knew the correct procedure here; I'm sure this is easy for an accomplished player."

I guess I'm saying... I'd make the very same assumption as the OP. Apparently this assumption is incorrect.

It's the way one of black's rooks seems trapped several tempi out of play (*edit -- oh jeez, I suppose should learn that new-fangled move, castling Undecided)  and the fact that white can get his rooks together on the seventh rank... isn't there some win that jumps out of that?

TheOldReb
jeffdorog wrote:

i see it white has winning.....


 He says white is winning and posts no line to show us.... Undecided

Nytik

Maybe there is not a win from the line given, but I am more inclined to think there are better chances from the diagram position with 29. Rdd7 (as if 29... Rxc4 30. Re7+ Kd8 31. g3 Rxa4 32. Rxf7 (threatening mate-in-1) Rc4 33. Rbd7+ so if Kc8, Rxa7 and if Ke8, Rxg7 a6 Ra7 threatening mate AGAIN.... and this position offers better chances for white.

boymaster
KittyJones wrote:
boymaster wrote:

I think 34. Rc5 Rf8 35. Ree7 and then a5,a6, king advances to queenside then promote is good enough.


I'm not sure how you can play Ree7 if you've moved your Rook to c5? Do you mean Rc7?  In that case, Black would probably play something like g6, but White has a definite edge in this game.


yes. i meant Rc7. sorry.

orangehonda
JG27Pyth wrote:

I am honestly startled that the NMs don't see a clear win -- this is the kind of position that I look at and think: "I wish I knew the correct procedure here; I'm sure this is easy for an accomplished player."

I guess I'm saying... I'd make the very same assumption as the OP. Apparently this assumption is incorrect.

It's the way one of black's rooks seems trapped several tempi out of play (*edit -- oh jeez, I suppose should learn that new-fangled move, castling )  and the fact that white can get his rooks together on the seventh rank... isn't there some win that jumps out of that?


You got it backwards, they know enough drawing procedures for the weaker side to make it more difficult for themselves Tongue out

orangehonda

This isn't to show a win, just that I don't think 29...Rf8 works.  I like 29.Rdd7, but how about 29...0-0  ?

orangehonda

I wondered why I had no problem with Reb's line before... he wasn't continuing from the diagram... he was continuing after the 5 moves given by the OP... never mind lol, but I think I like 29.Rdd7 better than 29.Re4... but it might end up with the same position.

Just to clear this up, it seems like we're looking at this position.

Nytik

Orangehonda-

Yes, 29... O-O is better than the line I gave. I was just showing what happened after black took the free pawn, in case people thought it was odd. I presumed the defence of the pawn is one of the reasons for 29. Re4.

woton

Something along this line might work, but it's not clear.

 

GrantZierer

Well black must have been losing in some way if he accepted the draw.

JG27Pyth
woton wrote:

Something along this line might work, but it's not clear.

 


That is a very nice conception! I doubt Black's play is "best" but it looks very  plausible.

David_Spencer

woton, your line is very interesting. This reminds me of a question I've always had: does removal of castling rights count as a change in position? Is it three-fold repetition if Black and White are both forced to lose castling rights? Why doesn't the fifty-move rule include this even though a King move with castling rights causes an irreversible change? I know these questions are unlikely to affect actual games, but I really don't know if getting rid of castling rights prevents three-fold repetition and I would like to know.

orangehonda

Umm, it effects the 3 move repetition because that has to do with repeating the same position 3 times.

It doesn't effect the 50 move rule because... well that has nothing to do with repetition, just the number of moves... makes sense to me (?)

Eebster
tonydal wrote:

Hm, that is a very good question.  I don't think it matters in the rulebook, if I remember right (but yeah, it should).


Wikipedia has all the answers! From Threefold Repetition:

The relevant rule in the FIDE laws of chess is 9.2, which reads:

The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by sequential repetition of moves)
a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.
Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.
Positions are not [considered to be] the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured or if the right to castle has been changed. (FIDE 2005, Article 9.2)

 

From Fifty-move rule:

The relevant part of the official FIDE laws of chess is rule 9.3:[1]

The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if
(a) he writes on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention to make a move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without the capture of any piece, or
(b) the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without the capture of any piece.