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Bundlers in Italian game

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sasadangelo

Hi all,

I am studying Italian Game and usually, after the classical move: e4, e5, Nf3, Nc6, Bc4. In the next move, I noticed I often tend to move Knight Cg5 and then Cxf7. The goal is to fork in f7 opponent Queen and Rook with the cell protected by the Bishop.

However, now I realized that in g5 Knight is threatened by the Queen.

For example, in this game I was lucky:

https://www.chess.com/game/live/32344747365

I know that possible continuations of Italian games are Giuoco Piano, Pianissimo, and Evan's Gambit. However, in your opinion do you think that my idea to fork Queen and Rook MUST be absolutely avoided or there are cases in which I can adopt it.

What is your favorite continuation of the Italian game?

Thanks

RussBell

Introduction to The Italian Game & Evans Gambit...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/introduction-to-the-italian-game

AlphaTeam

The attack you are going for is called the fired liver attack, and is very common in sub 1000 play. There are definitely times where going for that is viable, but you should always check to see if you are dropping the knight. In this case your opponent could have just taken your knight, and then you are down material. Being able to trade a knight for a rook is a good trade, so if you can force the trade without giving up anything more then go for it. 

The most important thing for the opening at your level is not learning opening theory for a specific opening. You need to focus on the opening principles, and not dropping pieces. Hope this helps.

Here is a link to the article on opening principles: https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-principles-of-the-opening 

sasadangelo
RussBell ha scritto:

Introduction to The Italian Game & Evans Gambit...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/introduction-to-the-italian-game

 

Yes, I read it with other articles related to the Italian Game. I am asking opinion from your own experience ce.

sasadangelo
AlphaTeam ha scritto:

The attack you are going for is called the fired liver attack, and is very common in sub 1000 play. There are definitely times where going for that is viable, but you should always check to see if you are dropping the knight. In this case your opponent could have just taken your knight, and then you are down material. Being able to trade a knight for a rook is a good trade, so if you can force the trade without giving up anything more then go for it. 

The most important thing for the opening at your level is not learning opening theory for a specific opening. You need to focus on the opening principles, and not dropping pieces. Hope this helps.

Here is a link to the article on opening principles: https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-principles-of-the-opening 

 

I read about the Fired Liver Attack. I will read it again to clarify this aspect. I already focus on principles and the reason is simple. At my level, people don't know too much (like me) about opening so they don't reply as expected. Using principles, instead, help me to always move what to do during the opening phase.

However, I tend to repeat my opening over and over with humans and bots in order to better understand them. Analyzing them help me to find out bundlers and errors and correct them.

Thank you for your reply.

sasadangelo

Forgot to mention.

When I read this article the only thing I didn't understand was Rule #10.

https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-principles-of-the-opening

Rule #10 - Attack "In the Direction" of Your Pawn(s) Structure!

Can anyone help me to understand what does it mean with examples?

 

AlphaTeam

Attacking towards the direction that your pawns are pointing. Kinda of like if your pawns were a finger. Whichever direction it is pointing is the direction you should develop your pieces towards. The reason behind it is mainly for two reasons: The First reason is that is where you have the most space in your position. 

 


In the above example with a pawn structure similar to this you would want to develop your pieces towards the king side. Your pawns act kind of like a wall in your position, and therefore your opponent will be more restricted toward that side of the board. This space will make it easier for you to coordinate your pieces, and have stronger attacks or defenses. 

 

 

In this pawn structure you would want to develop towards the center directly, and restrict your opponent as much as possible. 

The second reason I mentioned earlier is that you can coordinate you pieces together easier. Doing that will allow you to attack squares or positions with more pieces at the same time to overwhelm your opponent, and gain material or checkmate them. 

Hope this helps.  

sasadangelo

Thank you. One more thing. I read again the Fried Liver Attack:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Knights_Defense,_Fried_Liver_Attack

but it seems the goal is different from the mine. My goal was to fork Rook and Queen. In this opening, there is a Knight sacrifice but it's not clear to me the purpose. Here are the moves:

e4, e5, Nf3, Nc6, Bc4, Nf6, Ng5, exd5, Nxd5, Nxf7, Kxf7.

In my move, the goal (when everything was ok) is clear: catch a Rook. What is the goal of these moves?

AlphaTeam

That is the goal in the Wikipedia article you have linked to. The variation that it shows is a counter that black can play (it is not the only counter to it). If black does not want to trade the rook for the knight like in the article that you linked to black's king will be exposed, and white can either take or attack the knight on e5 that. In order to keep the knight black's king will be exposed in the center of the board. So they have to give up king safety in that position. Also black will not be able to castle so that is a big positional advantage to you also. Hope that helped explain it a bit more.  Here is the computer on this site's best moves for that counter:      1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4       9. Qe4 

marlau_amateur
Here's a diagram to sum it up.

 

 

RussBell
sasadangelo wrote:

Forgot to mention.

When I read this article the only thing I didn't understand was Rule #10.

https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-principles-of-the-opening

Rule #10 - Attack "In the Direction" of Your Pawn(s) Structure!

Can anyone help me to understand what does it mean with examples?

 

Pawn Play and Structure - for Beginners and Beyond...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/chess-books-on-pawn-play-and-structure

blueemu
sasadangelo wrote:

Hi all,

I am studying Italian Game and usually, after the classical move: e4, e5, Nf3, Nc6, Bc4. In the next move, I noticed I often tend to move Knight Cg5 and then Cxf7. The goal is to fork in f7 opponent Queen and Rook with the cell protected by the Bishop.

However, now I realized that in g5 Knight is threatened by the Queen.

For example, in this game I was lucky:

https://www.chess.com/game/live/32344747365

I know that possible continuations of Italian games are Giuoco Piano, Pianissimo, and Evan's Gambit. However, in your opinion do you think that my idea to fork Queen and Rook MUST be absolutely avoided or there are cases in which I can adopt it.

What is your favorite continuation of the Italian game?

Thanks

The idea of Nxf7 is too simple and straightforward to work against anyone but a beginner.

sasadangelo
blueemu ha scritto:
sasadangelo wrote:

Hi all,

I am studying Italian Game and usually, after the classical move: e4, e5, Nf3, Nc6, Bc4. In the next move, I noticed I often tend to move Knight Cg5 and then Cxf7. The goal is to fork in f7 opponent Queen and Rook with the cell protected by the Bishop.

However, now I realized that in g5 Knight is threatened by the Queen.

For example, in this game I was lucky:

https://www.chess.com/game/live/32344747365

I know that possible continuations of Italian games are Giuoco Piano, Pianissimo, and Evan's Gambit. However, in your opinion do you think that my idea to fork Queen and Rook MUST be absolutely avoided or there are cases in which I can adopt it.

What is your favorite continuation of the Italian game?

Thanks

The idea of Nxf7 is too simple and straightforward to work against anyone but a beginner.

Good to know. Thank you.

 

tygxc

The move 4 Ng5 violates the opening principle to not play the same piece twice, but it wins a pawn by force. Black should play 5...Na5 or 5...Nd4 or 5...b5 and he gets compensation for the pawn. The natural move 5...Nxd5? gets black into trouble.