What is considered a beginner rating?

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Avatar of llamonade2
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
llamonade2 a écrit :

Pfft, when (the outdated version of) SF had an opening book DeepMind only scored 54% which is an Elo of ~30 points higher.

Neural networks are amazing, but the strength of their chess playing is completely overblown.

Now give SF all the bells and whistles. Give it powerful hardware with an opening book plus access to endgame tablebases. Of course they don't do that because a they might not even win, but if they did, it would be something like 51% to 49% which wouldn't make good headlines.

Give the same opening to A0 and SF is dead.

Give the same $ amount of hardware and I highly doubt it. They have stockfish with all the bells and whistles on a supercomputer in Norway for example. Let A0 battle that instead of some old version of SF on bad hardware at bad time controls then not even releasing half the games to the public.

Avatar of llamonade2

I started a topic about this by the way

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/deepmind-neural-network-strength

Avatar of llamonade2
Quwu wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
llamonade2 a écrit :

Pfft, when (the outdated version of) SF had an opening book DeepMind only scored 54% which is an Elo of ~30 points higher.

Neural networks are amazing, but the strength of their chess playing is completely overblown.

Now give SF all the bells and whistles. Give it powerful hardware with an opening book plus access to endgame tablebases. Of course they don't do that because a they might not even win, but if they did, it would be something like 51% to 49% which wouldn't make good headlines.

Give the same opening to A0 and SF is dead.

Give the same $ amount of hardware and I highly doubt it. They have stockfish on a supercomputer in Norway for example. Let A0 battle that instead of some old version of SF on bad hardware at bad time controls then not even releasing half the games to the public.

A0 needs some very expensive hardware to run at all.  Conversely,  SF has severe diminishing returns after a certain depth and doesn't get much value out of the same hardware.   It's just a mismatch

If it's not a problem them don't clandestinely select the conditions like old software and cheap hardware.

But of course they wont because winning 51% to 49% isn't a good headline. Even worse they could lose.

In fact 57% isn't a good headline either, so they don't even tell you it's a meager result. They just flash the 100+ wins vs 6 losses to wow the uneducated masses. 

Avatar of llamonade2

By the way if you think the fact that you're an hours-old account with a female avatar and contentious posts has escaped my attention think again. I don't take you seriously for a second.

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Weak sauce.

Avatar of drmrboss

Latest Leela beat SF11 by + 25 elo margin  which is much more impressive than Alpha Zero as  SF 11 is already +150 elo Stronger than SF 8. 

 

 

Avatar of llamonade2
drmrboss wrote:

Latest Leela beat SF11 by + 25 elo margin  which is much more impressive as  SF 11 is already +150 elo Stronger than SF 8. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.

Although again, I say their strength is completely overblown in the chess playing community. This is a very small difference, and also I'd like to know what kind of hardware they gave to SF.

Avatar of Marie-AnneLiz
Quwu a écrit :
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
Quwu a écrit :

A beginner is someone who has invested little time into chess relative to how much time they are going to.   Rating is a separate beast.  there are some very strong beginners who are highly competitive above 2500 FIDE

Do you know how many years it take to get to 2500 ? a beginner cannot be someone that worked hard daily for more then 10 years.

There are players who haven't worked hard and / or have played less than two years at that level.

Just to get to 2450 elo (and very few can get at that level) it  usually take at least 8 years.

Can a super genius do it faster...of course but that is very rare!

In 2 years? no way! 

Avatar of Marie-AnneLiz
Quwu a écrit :
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
Quwu a écrit :

A beginner is someone who has invested little time into chess relative to how much time they are going to.   Rating is a separate beast.  there are some very strong beginners who are highly competitive above 2500 FIDE

Do you know how many years it take to get to 2500 ? a beginner cannot be someone that worked hard daily for more then 10 years.

There are players who haven't worked hard and / or have played less than two years at that level.

It took Fisher 6 years to get there.

Avatar of kindaspongey
Ziryab wrote:

Colby is right. His claim remains unrefuted.

You referring to a claim about who should be called a beginner? Is it possible to refute a chess terminology claim in the absence of any generally accepted authority?

Avatar of M2424

And not theoriticaly but for real it will be life consuming to go from 2000 to 4000.. so just enjoy man don't trap yourself..

Avatar of Colby-Covington
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

Just to get to 2450 elo (and very few can get at that level) it  usually take at least 8 years.

Can a super genius do it faster...of course but that is very rare!

In 2 years? no way! 

How do you know the precise number of years it takes one to do anything?

I actually don't think intelligence plays such a big factor in chess as opposed to preparation and study.

I've been playing for 5 years and made 2227 FIDE last month,  I'm also most certainly an average dummy.

I still consider myself a beginner, because I have experienced what it's like to play a 2500+ GM who just obliterated me. That's when I realized that the gap between 2500 and everything else increases exponentially.

In my opinion everyone who can't comfortably and confidently play at that level should be considered a beginner, because we simply lack the strength to call ourselves anything else.

These in-between terms like "itermediate", " advanced player", "expert", mean nothing in my eyes.

 

Avatar of kindaspongey
Colby-Covington wrote:

... That's when I realized that the gap between 2500 and everything else increases exponentially.

In my opinion everyone who can't comfortably and confidently play at that level should be considered a beginner, because we simply lack the strength to call ourselves anything else. ...

Is there anyone who gave you the authority to decide that a nonbeginner requires the strength to be able to play comfortably and confidently at the 2500 level?

By the way, do you think that the gap at the Grand Canyon is increasing exponentially?

Avatar of kindaspongey
Colby-Covington wrote:

… These in-between terms like "itermediate", " advanced player", "expert", mean nothing in my eyes.

Well, it would seem likely that they mean different things to different people, but, isn't that also true for "beginner"?

Avatar of kindaspongey
Colby-Covington wrote:

... I'm also most certainly an average dummy. ...

How do you know?

Avatar of Marie-AnneLiz
Colby-Covington a écrit :
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

Just to get to 2450 elo (and very few can get at that level) it  usually take at least 8 years.

Can a super genius do it faster...of course but that is very rare!

In 2 years? no way! 

How do you know the precise number of years it takes one to do anything?

I actually don't think intelligence plays such a big factor in chess as opposed to preparation and study.

I've been playing for 5 years and made 2227 FIDE last month,  I'm also most certainly an average dummy.

I still consider myself a beginner, because I have experienced what it's like to play a 2500+ GM who just obliterated me. That's when I realized that the gap between 2500 and everything else increases exponentially.

In my opinion everyone who can't comfortably and confidently play at that level should be considered a beginner, because we simply lack the strength to call ourselves anything else.

These in-between terms like "itermediate", " advanced player", "expert", mean nothing in my eyes.

 

I know how much time it take because i know many IM that are stuck at 2450 since 10 years or woman that are stuck to 2100 since 10+ years and experts that are stuck at 2000 etc etc and they told me how many years they had to work hard daily to get there....and i did read a lot about GM and their story to get there.....

There is no secret there.....and there are many interviews on the net from these peoples....

I can give you a lot of names and show you where to see their interviews but i don't have the time i prefer to go play now....

2200 ELO in 5 years? well you are a genius because that is not at all the average...

Avatar of Marie-AnneLiz
M2424 a écrit :

And not theoriticaly but for real it will be life consuming to go from 2000 to 4000.. so just enjoy man don't trap yourself..

4000 will be easy to get once we are a cyborg wink.png in less than 50 years i'm sure...think about a brain directly connected to a quantum computer....with a few thousands qubits.....

Avatar of Colby-Covington
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

I can give you a lot of names and show you where to see their interviews but i don't have the time i prefer to go play now....

2200 ELO in 5 years? well you are a genius because that is not at all the average...

I'm telling you that my achievement is below average nowadays, compared to actual, competitive players half my age. I have played countless 13 - 15 yo highly rated players OTB, many among them being FMs and NMs who are true prodigies and progressed at 3 to 4 times that speed. Players taking an eternity to improve is simply a thing of the past with today's instant access to boundless information through pgn libraries, online videos, theory and tactics databases.

Avatar of Marie-AnneLiz
Colby-Covington a écrit :
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

I can give you a lot of names and show you where to see their interviews but i don't have the time i prefer to go play now....

2200 ELO in 5 years? well you are a genius because that is not at all the average...

I'm telling you that my achievement is below average nowadays, compared to actual, competitive players half my age. I have played countless 13 - 15 yo highly rated players OTB, many among them being FMs and NMs who are true prodigies and progressed at 3 to 4 times that speed. Players taking an eternity to improve is simply a thing of the past with today's instant access to boundless information through pgn libraries, online videos, theory and tactics databases.

2200 ELO in 5 years of hard studies every day and tournements every week  and private coaching and 200 tactics a day + more on openings is doable but not the average.

Avatar of Marie-AnneLiz
Colby-Covington a écrit :
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

I can give you a lot of names and show you where to see their interviews but i don't have the time i prefer to go play now....

2200 ELO in 5 years? well you are a genius because that is not at all the average...

I'm telling you that my achievement is below average nowadays, compared to actual, competitive players half my age. I have played countless 13 - 15 yo highly rated players OTB, many among them being FMs and NMs who are true prodigies and progressed at 3 to 4 times that speed. Players taking an eternity to improve is simply a thing of the past with today's instant access to boundless information through pgn libraries, online videos, theory and tactics databases.

I know an 11 years old that did 2220 USFC in 5 years of hard work and with a private coach and a tournement every week etc etc....

And i know a 17 years old that did 2400 in 9 years (7 years for 2200).