How to make illegal positions

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Tyzer
Eebster wrote:
HotFlow wrote:

Answer is no, but if you took away the knight it would be, but why?


The only legal position that can lead to that position is with the black king at h2, in check, because there is nowhere the knight could have come from and the king could not have been adjacent to white's king. One tempo before that, white must have not had black in check (since it was white to move), but there is nowhere the rook could have come from, so the check must have been discovered. Without white's knight, there would be nothing to block the rook check, and the position would have been illegal.


Actually another potential move before this could have been Bh1+ with discovered check from the rook, followed by Kxh1. But with all eight pawns and the light-squared bishop on the board, that's also not a valid solution. I guess that explains the presence of the light-squared bishop in that puzzle.

BTW, einstein_69101, I just realized the idea you had in that position...white's last move was definitely the double check Nh6+ (or Nxh6+ if it was a capture); but there is no way to reach the position before that move because any square that Black's pieces could have come from puts either one of the kings in check (plus the c-pawn could not have come from b7 or d7 as there are pawns there, while it could not have come from c7 as the dark-squared bishop is on b8). Putting the extra pawn on h5 prevented the use of a black queen or rook to lose tempo along the h-file (pawn, bishop or knight were already invalid options in the original position as there are no squares they could have come from), so the position is no longer reachable. Quite a slick puzzle, nicely done.

einstein_69101
Eebster wrote:
einstein_69101 wrote:
tyzebug wrote:
einstein_69101 wrote:

Legal or illegal?  :)  I think this one is a good one.

 

 


 

Looks legal to me. I don't really see what the problem is (although I had to lose a lot of tempos with the black queen at the end because I didn't spend enough time on positioning the white pieces).

You are right.  :)  I actually tried to setup an illegal position, but I overlooked one thing.  You showed that it was legal.  I made a couple changes to the diagram.  Unless I overlooked something else, I believe that this diagram here is illegal.

 

 

 


I fail to see how that is illegal. White captured at least five of black's pieces with his pawns, but there are more than five black pieces missing, and nothing needs to be the result of a promotion. Other than that, nothing really jumps out at me other than the odd position of white's king, but it doesn't look difficult to move it there.


I think I found another flaw in my 2nd diagram.  I will fix it here shortly.  I will go through my steps of my thought process.  The thing is that I overlooked is that there is the possibility that white has captured a black piece that black just moved (this is also the case for 2 turns ago).  :)  There is a lot to think about for this diagram.  I'm trying to combine different concepts.  You have one concept, and that is about the pawn structure.  I'm factoring that into the 3rd diagram.  :)  I think the 3rd time will be a charm.

thomastanck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Legal self stalemate for both sides...

 

But what's wrong with this?  >:D    <-- evil laugh.

Hint: Pawns CAN reach that position, but what about the KINGS!

EDIT: Nooooo! the last move didn't have to be a king move! the correct one is below the current one.

the answer is that it is legal too, because of the error. the third one is illegal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

einstein_69101
tyzebug wrote:
Eebster wrote:
HotFlow wrote:

Answer is no, but if you took away the knight it would be, but why?


The only legal position that can lead to that position is with the black king at h2, in check, because there is nowhere the knight could have come from and the king could not have been adjacent to white's king. One tempo before that, white must have not had black in check (since it was white to move), but there is nowhere the rook could have come from, so the check must have been discovered. Without white's knight, there would be nothing to block the rook check, and the position would have been illegal.


Actually another potential move before this could have been Bh1+ with discovered check from the rook, followed by Kxh1. But with all eight pawns and the light-squared bishop on the board, that's also not a valid solution. I guess that explains the presence of the light-squared bishop in that puzzle.

BTW, einstein_69101, I just realized the idea you had in that position...white's last move was definitely the double check Nh6+ (or Nxh6+ if it was a capture); but there is no way to reach the position before that move because any square that Black's pieces could have come from puts either one of the kings in check (plus the c-pawn could not have come from b7 or d7 as there are pawns there, while it could not have come from c7 as the dark-squared bishop is on b8). Putting the extra pawn on h5 prevented the use of a black queen or rook to lose tempo along the h-file (pawn, bishop or knight were already invalid options in the original position as there are no squares they could have come from), so the position is no longer reachable. Quite a slick puzzle, nicely done.


That is the idea that I had.  :)  Nice catch.  White has just completed his turn and there was only one possible play.  It was Nh6+ (or Nxh6+ if black had a piece there).  The knight came from the f7 square (this is the only square that the knight would be blocking the bishop).  And then we think about what were the possible moves that black has made before that.  Black's only move seems to be Kg8 (from h8).  There are no other possibilities like you mentioned.  But if the black king was on h8 then this means it was in check and it had to get out of check by moving to g8 (the white knight is on f7).  This means that white has moved Nf7+ right before black has moved the king and the only possible square that the knight came from is the h6 square.  And if we continue to think backwards then black's move before white played Nf7+ (or Nxf7+) is possibly Qf7, Rf7, or Bf7 (This is the idea that I missed so I need to fix that  :)   ).  Kh8 is not a possibility since that would be repetition.  If a board is legal then it will be reversible all the way to the starting position.  This means that if we get a repetition in reverse then we will never reach the starting position and that will make it illegal.

einstein_69101

Here is my 3rd diagram.  :)  I will give my detailed explaination shortly.

 

thomastanck

im waiting! ;)

thomastanck

i'm still waiting... ):

thomastanck

anyway,

Illegal or legal?

Hint: it is legal! but...

thomastanck

what the heck... another 25 minutes have gone by... his "quick explanation" coming up is not coming on...

einstein_69101

Here is diagram 3 with my explanations.  :)  I used a smaller size diagram to save some space.  I used negative numbers to display my move numbers.  They represent the number of moves to think backwards.  It is in the form of ...-3. w b -2. w b -1. w b where w = white move and b = black move.  :)  A '-3' means to think 3 moves back and a '-1' means to think one move back.

 

First thing to note is that black is in double check.  Even if the diagram doesn't say who's turn it is, it is clear that it is black's turn since the black king needs to get out of check.

 

The next thing is to think about white's last move.  What can it be?  Black is in double check so this means that the white knight was blocking the light bishop from attacking the black king.

 

 

 

White's last move can only be -1. Nh6+ or -1. Nxh6+ coming from the f7 square.  This is the only square that the knight can be on that blocks the light bishop from attacking the black king.

 

It cannot be -1. Nxh6+ for a couple reasons.  One reason is that no black piece can reach that square and have it be white's turn.  No black pawn can be there since the g7 and the h7 pawns never have moved and can be the only possible pawns to reach that square.  No black knight can reach that square.  It would have to be a promoted knight since there are two other knights and all paths are blocked off.  A black knight can reach there and white can close the path off as the knight enters but then it would be black's turn not white's.  And it is a similiar story with a bishop, rook, and a queen.

 

A second reason why -1. Nxh6+ is impossible is because of the total capture count from the pawn structure.  White's pawns needs a minimum of 5 captures to reach that structure since there are 6 white pawns on 5 adjacent files.  Black has already lost 2 pawns, 2 rooks, and a queen (a total of 5 pieces).  This means that all of black's captured pieces were captured by white pawns.  This shows that only -1. Nh6+ is possible.

 

Now we know that the knight came from the f7 square and did not capture anything.  The next step is to figure out what black played before white played -1. Nh6+.  What are the possibilities for black?

 

It is not -2...Bb8 because the only square that is not occupied that it can possibly come from is c7.  And a bishop on c7 would be putting the white king in check.

 

It is not -2...c6 because that means that that pawn just came from the c7 square.  Black's dark squared bishop's starting square is the f8 square, not the b8 square.  This means that the bishop had to travel to that square along the b8-h2 diagonal, and it would be impossible if there was a pawn on c7.

 

It is not -2...Ng5 nor is it -2...Nf8 because the only vacant square they possibly can come from is the e6 square.  But a knight on e6 would be putting white in check so this is not possible.

 

-2...bxc5 seems likely but it is not.  If there was a pawn on b6 then that means that pawn can only come from the c7 starting position.  This would mean that the c7 pawn made two captures (c7 -> b6 -> c5).  This would also imply that the black pawn on c6 came from the d7 starting square which is another capture move by a pawn.  This totals 3 captures by black pawns.  White has only lost a pawn and a queen so this is not possible.

 

-2...Kg8 (from h8) is a possibility since it is possible that black was in check, and he needs to get out of check with this move.

 

Since we now have -2...Kg8 -1. Nh6+ as a possibiliy we need to continue to think farther back.  :)  Black was moving out of check because of the knight on f7.  This means that white has moved the knight to f7 from somewhere to attack the black king.  The only vacant square is h6.  The only possibilities are -2. Nf7+ and -2. Nxf7+.  But we have already determined that only the white pawns have captured black pieces so -2. Nxf7+ is not a possibility.  Only -2. Nf7+ works.

 

 

 

And you can see from this diagram and given all of the previous arguments that black's previous move can only be a king move.  That is -3...Kh8 -2. Nf7+ Kg8 -1. Nh6+.  This means the black king came from g8 and we have a board repetition.  This type of repetition tells us that the position is not legal because all legal positions should reach the starting position in some reverse way.  A reverse repetition will never reach the starting position unless the initial position is the position being repeated.  Notice that -3...Ng5 (from f7) is not possible because a knight on f7 would have put white in check.  :)

einstein_69101

Sorry, that took awhile to type up.  :)

Tyzer

Lol. That certainly is a pretty hefty retrograde analysis puzzle. I love it. Really, this thread ought to be renamed "retrograde analysis" or something.

 

Anyway, thomastanck, your position is pretty easy to reach...

 

thomastanck

aha!

 

I said "but..."

 

but ITS WHITE TO MOVE! hahahaha!

thomastanck

awww, don't let this thread die! We shall bump it up with a very intricate retro-analysis puzzle!

 

Legal or Illegal?

this one's easy.

amitprabhale

wowwwwwwwwwwwwww

thomastanck

aww, come on, any thoughts? no?

thomastanck
[COMMENT DELETED]
thomastanck

screwed up again!

thomastanck

beh! screwed up 2 times! this is the current puzzle.

have fun not solving it!

EDIT: now that i look at it it looks like the ultimate checkmate!

Eebster

O.K., so my puzzle isn't quite as hard as einstein's (once he finally got it right), but this edit makes it a bit harder, and I'lll give some hints to see if that helps.

Prove that the following position is illegal:

Hint one: Try to track down where each of white's pawns came from.
Hint two: Where must white's dark square bishops come from? (Double hint: What is strange about the c1 square?)
Hint three: Where did black's g and h pawns come from?
Hint four: Count the total number of captures from both black and white and compare to the number of pieces remaining on the board for each side.
Tell me what you think!