Calculation Training

Ok, I'll give your members a hint on how easy this problem/solution is:

1st) It only takes a glance to see if there are any possible mate combinations for either side

2) Depending on the position, it can take from a few seconds to several minutes to see if there are any combinations/moves that will win/lose material

3) Next, you look at what your opponent is threatening 

4) Black is 'threatening' to get the better game by playing ...Nc6

5) Can you make a stronger threat?  NO!

6) What do you do if you can't stop this "threat"?

7) You can make his position pretty miserable if he plays it!

Sure!

1st:  Check to see if there are any possible mate combinations for either side,

2nd:  Check to see if there are any combinations/moves that will win/lose material,

3rd: Look at what your opponent is threatening? That means 'tactical' AND 'positional'.

4th: Can you make a stronger threat that is good?  Yes/No

   a)  and I don't mean 'attack the queen' because depending on the position, you might actually make your opponent move it to a better square!).  Then look at how sustainable your threat is. This will require much calculation.

5th:  If 'NO' then look for a move that will make his/her position pretty miserable if he/she plays it!

6th:  If you cannot do that then you have to find the best line of play - again, much calculation is needed.

Cheers,

Don

post the line you think wins a pawn; remember that this forum thrives off of ideas and explanation into reasoning through the position.

This is not my thread, but I agree with you PawnstormPossie !

Black does not have to drop the pawn, but his position is in shatters if he continues with either knight to c6. You've found the correct move! 

I haven't analyzed anything in depth yet, but after an initial sweep the only move I am really drawn to analyzing later on is Nd4, a speculative sacrifice that really ups the pressure if not accepted, but allows for a dangerous looking pawn in the center and some immediate threats to black minor pieces, while black is still underdeveloped, if taken. 

I will look at it more later today when I come back, but as it sits now I am trying to decide where the queen goes after Nd4 exd4 cxd4 Nc6, if anyone else wants to ponder it from there.

I guess the how and why is implied in the speculative sacrifice description.  If you would have preferred I said it like this:

After looking at Nd4 (and if you are not prone to look at a move like Nd4 because it seems bad by default, then that's a much much longer lesson than anyone can learn here on this thread), I saw that if black takes, white will immediately form a 3 pawn center mass after cxd4.  I also saw that black will not be able to respond well because while those pawns start rolling, because black must extricate himself from the chain of interlocking threats his minor pieces face...the bishop and knight at c6 face a pawn fork, but the knight on c6 can't go anywhere because the knight on a5 depends on it, etc.

This still boils down speculative sac/pawn mass, which is what I had time to interject.

I might have covered this later when I came back for a real analysis...and now I'm 15 minutes late .  Perhaps just accept contributions without recrimination...you might not know why someone does something a certain way.

Don't assume everyone follows your own methodology.

Nd4 was the first move after an initial tactics/blunder check that I even saw.  It's not *that* amazing a sac attempt...and there certainly may be a better move or moves, because, as I said, it was the first move that seemed to have possibilities.

Can't help you there.  I'm not sure why you'd assume you are a better player "*I* could not even find it".  If I'm bad and it was the first instinct I had, but you didn't even consider it as a candidate, maybe you need to reevaluate your notion of where you are, not where I am...

People probably do use engines, I used it after having a look and not finding any good lines. Once you see Nd4 it's obviously the best move and there are some fun calculations to do. In this case, it's seeing the move that's the difficult bit rather than the calculation because it's not the most natural looking sacrifice.

I answered your post and gave you the process. I did everything but TELL you the move!

Arrakis09 wrote:
Ok, I'll give your members a hint on how easy this problem/solution is:

1st) It only takes a glance to see if there are any possible mate combinations for either side

2) Depending on the position, it can take from a few seconds to several minutes to see if there are any combinations/moves that will win/lose material

3) Next, you look at what your opponent is threatening

4) Black is 'threatening' to get the better game by playing ...Nc6

5) Can you make a stronger threat? NO!

6) What do you do if you can't stop this "threat"?

7) You can make his position pretty miserable if he plays it!

 TY!   

Please do not distract the subject matter by posting arguments and/or information not pertaining  to the thread - Admin

I'm back...I will try to answer the rest of the posts in one post succinctly, because it is not my intention to derail this thread...this is actually one of the few good threads among a sea of dreck.

- Someone said "I found it!  I just can't be bothered to explain right now" or something to that effect (paraphrasing).  That is not how I came into this thread, though.  Sorry that Nd4 was actually the move, it was just a  strong candidate to explore as far as I was concerned at that point.  I was actually worried because I was posting quickly that I had missed some glaring continuation error and that I would come back to find out I had egg on my face.

As for why I would post it at all, it's because I was looking at this thread as something not unlike a votechess team discussion, where good team members toss out ideas all the time that they don't have time to flesh out, and then someone else refutes it or takes up the torch, no biggie.  It appears this is more of a "take home test" kind of thread where you want students to work alone and then post their solution, showing the steps involved.  Sorry,  Rest assured, I will not post any quick analysis (if anything) on this thread again.

- Daddy-whoever then could not believe I found Nd4 if he didn't see it.  Sorry.  Honestly, not my problem.  Then he challenged me to a 3 min blitz game.  First, I don't play anyone blitz, ever...which very recently came up in another thread if you doubt me .  Second, I don't play anyone at chess.com anymore, so I would never accept the challenge anyway.  Why?  It's a no-win scenario.  If I win, D-person gets all bent out of shape and harasses me...if D-person wins, he hounds and harasses me anyway.  So, there's no point in ever playing such a person coming from that kind of a dynamic ("I'll show you, person I disagree with on the forums...").  I don't need to prove anything, especially in this case since I know I gravitated to Nd4 .

- It's not that "unnatural" a sac at all if you have played through a lot of GM pawn roller games.  You won't run into those positions on Puzzle Rush/Tactics Trainer too often, though (too many moves, not enough forcing branches).  Google or YouTube "pawn roller" and do some digging.  There are lots of games where sacrificing a knight or bishop to create central pawn mass is the key to a victory.

If you can't find any specific games (I couldn't in a cursory 5 min search) offhand, I think there are a few annotated teaching examples in Alex Dunne's "How to Play Like a Candidate Master" and/or "How to Play Like a Class A Player".  At least, that is where I remember them being, I could be wrong.  The examples go over *exactly* this type of sacrifice...giving up a knight or bishop while enjoying a development lead to create a pawn center that crushes the opponent's open space and plays havoc with their piece placements.  By the time they "recover" from the threats, there's a defended pawn on the 7th, or they have lost more material than the original sac, etc.

It's not unlike trying to explain why a Bxh7+ sacrifice is warranted when it doesn't pay off for 20-30 moves.

The position I decided to post was intended to do precisely what you have noticed. It is a vote-chess-style approach where I could post room for calculation; I'm glad you like this position as much as I do.   You are correct: tactics trainer won't give a puzzle like this too often (if ever), but it is certainly a good idea to have in one's chess arsenal. Although this "sacrifice" isn't super easy to see at first (although easier for a trained eye to spot), the move is a "natural" move if you have a deeper understanding that many do not. Your analysis/insights simply reveals that you have this "deeper understanding" @btickler  I don't doubt your chess ability; an engine wouldn't be able to describe the reasoning as you have. 

Furthermore, I wouldn't have accepted the challenge from your incoming 3 minute game either (not that I am taking sides one way or the other), it is simply a no win situation as you pointed out.

I realize that this post was not directed towards me personally, but I want you to know that I wouldn't mind either approach for this thread of mine. If you choose to never post a quick analysis here, then that is all right; of course, I wouldn't mind in the least if you had either.  I designed this forum to be exactly as you say "A 'take home test' test kind of thread...showing steps involved." However, the ideas and explanations are what really help others learn best. If you only have time to post a "quick analysis" idea without the time to "flesh out" the rest, then that is acceptable. If an observer is reading your comment further down the page, then they didn't have an intention of solving/attempting the position themselves (which is a valid way to learn too, but they shouldn't feel offended that a "spoiler" might be given away: this is what the thread is really about! Reading insights "spoilers" if you call them that, and then learning from the way of thinking to be able to have a better chance of replicating those insights in your own games).

I appreciate hearing that this thread has been one of your favorites. I hope to continue posting calculation positions like these for others to practice too.  

Cool beans.