Can someone explain Fritz his best move?

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YannickO82

This is from a game I played yesterday. I'm doing an infinite analyses of some of the positions and normally I do understand the moves that Fritz is coming up with. 

However in the below position, black to move, Fritz is best is Be7. 

I don't really see why this is the best move for black. Isn't it better to get his e6 bishop to safety? 

The only reason I can see is that it frees his queen from a pin and he can start moving his knight on g5 but it seems strange that this would justify the bishop on e6

Shivsky

There is no pin unless the g5 Knight is an undercover Bishop.

Your e6 bishop is not "unsafe" given that Nxe6 fxe6 regains material if you are a fan of the "B = N = 3 pawns" math.

Though Black seems willing to lose his bishop pair (which can be valuable given the right circumstances) in exchange for developing another piece and preparing to castle.  

A move like Bd7/Bc8 moves the same piece twice in the opening without a really good reason to do so, so that's more of a general principle violation.

In summary,  it looks like Fritz (at whatever level you are playing at) made this trade-off decision though I do find it odd that the computer undervalues having the pair of bishops (which can sometimes be worth half a pawn when your opponent does NOT have the bishop pair anymore plus you actually know HOW to use a pair of bishops :))

Another explanation is that learning chess from computer moves is probably a horrible idea to begin with if you are just starting out . :)

cats-not-knights

Maybe after N+e6 f*e6 Fritz consider also the opened f file for the rook and a strong center.

Benzodiazepine

I balive that StokcFish, Hoidni and or Rybka are much more advanged than Fritz.

ArtNJ

Your standard rating is 794.  Your Fritz's rating is north of 2500, possibly north of 3000 depending on version, hardware and time control.  You have no hope of understanding why Fritz likes one move over another unless one move drops or wins material (ie unless there are tactics).  That is not an insult -- I'm about 1900 strength at slow chess, and I cant always figure out why engines like one move or another unless tactics are involved.  Even when I think I might know, good chance I'm wrong.  Computers analyze positions so differently from a human that their choices are often not something that can readily be put into words.  

Using Fritz *is* a decent way to spot errors that drop material, and missed chances to win material, but its a terrible way to try and learn general principles or positional chess.  

It would be vastly better to post your losses here and ask for help.  And to practice tactics using the tactics trainer here or chesstempo.com.

Benzodiazepine

Agree with ArtNJ, in fact, to put it as an insult: his standard rating is south of 800!

YannickO82

Let me clarify something... I played this game vs a human here on chess.com

I merely used Fritz to analyse the game. I was white and won in the end. 

I know I am a beginner and that's exactly why I want to understand why this move is the best (according to Fritz). 

I do understand that Be7 is ok according to opening principles. It's makes a piece more active but by doing so we exchange material. Isn't it better to put his bishop in safety? 

Again... I'm a beginner and want to learn. 

K_Brown

You can start by looking at the long variation it gives instead of just that move. You can also make your move and see how it responds. Also expand the number of variations that Fritz is showing and play them too. Chances are that there is more than one good move. Stronger engines like Stockfish 5 and Komodo 8 seem to like Bc8 followed by Be7 which is probably easier to understand. There are probably at least 5 playable moves in this position though that you could look at and see which continuation you like best.

pfren

Your Fritz is definitely wrong: Keeping the precious bishop pair with 1...Bd7 is the right move, especially since white is not threatening anything- his queenside is still at the starting blocks.

After 1...Bd7 2.Qc4? is a lemon due to 2...d5, and 2.e5? dxe5 3.Qxe5+ Be7 leaves white dangerously behind in development.

But to be honest, I can't figure out any very reasonable way to reach this position. Nevermind...

YannickO82

This is the game: http://www.chess.com/livechess/game?id=937731792
Played it yesterday. Don't expect fancy moves, we were both beginners, hence our rating :)

I made a couple of mistakes but he made some more so I won :) 

pfren

Ah, OK. For the record, your opponent was rather a "she", not he... Tongue Out

May I ask why you did not pick the free pawn at e6 (5.Nxe6 fxe6 6.Bxe6 and now 6...Nxe4? 7.Qf3 and white is threatening too much: knight on e4, mate on f7, as well as the pawn on b7 if the knight moves away) and played 5.Bb5+ instead?

There is an old motto which says "patzer sees check, patzer gives check". Try avoiding it in the foreseeable future...

YannickO82

Still learning and that's why I want to analyse my games. I've only been playing chess for 2 weeks now so...

I noticed it afterwards that 5.Bb5+ was not the best move. 

To be honest, I didn't realize there was a free pawn by Kxe6. That was also a move Fritz proposed and I could see why... 

justus_jep

Maybe keeping the bishop pair is better indeed. Here's a good question tho is the bishop better on d7 or on c8 ? 

Thoughtdancerschoice
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Thoughtdancerschoice

What are you like six or seven moves into a Scotch variation of some sort?  I don't see where there is a critical point to question why Be7 is worse than losing a tempo by moving the B @ e6 to d7 or c8.  If white captures at e6, he is exchanging a developed piece and allowing black a very nice semi-open f file.  I would rather wonder why white moved the knight to g5 than why black is continuing with his development and ignoring the possible exchange.  

Benzodiazepine

This is the game in QUESTION: http://www.chess.com/livechess/game?id=937731792

 



Benzodiazepine

Looks like black didn' expect the checkmate!

LMAO!

Thoughtdancerschoice
Benzodiazepine wrote:

Looks like black didn' expect the checkmate!

LMAO!

That is why they say, "Always check, it might be mate!"

YannickO82

I know I didn't apply it correctly but I read in a few books that you only should check with a reason and not just because you can. 

In this case, I knew it was going to be mate, only afterwards I noticed that this strategy wasn't the best because it could easily be countered by Re7

YannickO82
chessmicky wrote:

 Unless the computer rates your move at at least 0.5 (half a pawn) worse, don't worry about it. half a pawn won't make much difference in a game between less experienced players.  

 

Thanks for this :) 

I try to compare my actual move with the proposed moves but often my move is not in his calculated moves, I would assume in such cases that my move is just plain bad :)
Fritz often give me a list of 15 moves ordered by pawn value.

Do you know if there is way to force Fritz into calculating your move as well, in case it's not listed.