Computer says +8, but isn't this a draw?

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Petter_U

In the final stages of this game, I have just promoted my last pawn and White is looking to do the same but is prevented by a check. The computer analysis says Black is +8, but I am unable to find a checkmate and I have the distinct feeling that with correct play, White can always avoid defeat, forcing a draw either by stalemate, repetition, the 50 move rule or lack of materiel. I tried to get him to move Kf8, blocking his own pawn so I can bring my king forward, but after doing that a couple of times, he seemed to understand that this had to be avoided, so he stopped moving to f8. I couldn't see any other chance of winning.

Am I wrong? Is the computer analysis seeing something I don't or is it simply misjudging the position, not realizing that White can hold on?

 

notmtwain
Petter_U wrote:

In the final stages of this game, I have just promoted my last pawn and White is looking to do the same but is prevented by a check. The computer analysis says Black is +8, but I am unable to find a checkmate and I have the distinct feeling that with correct play, White can always avoid defeat, forcing a draw either by stalemate, repetition, the 50 move rule or lack of materiel. I tried to get him to move Kf8, blocking his own pawn so I can bring my king forward, but after doing that a couple of times, he seemed to understand that this had to be avoided, so he stopped moving to f8. I couldn't see any other chance of winning.

Am I wrong? Is the computer analysis seeing something I don't or is it simply misjudging the position, not realizing that White can hold on?

 

Here is the game. Yes, that is a draw. 

The computers don't have tablebases built in. Fortunately, you were able to approach the truth of the situation.

Petter_U

@notmtwain: Thank you. happy.png

Rat1960

The diagram is a win because black can get to Qh8 and then Qf8 after which the king captures the pawn.
Yes white just plays Kg8-h8 and Kh8-g8. The best black has is QxP and stalemate.
If it was a d-pawn or e-pawn a win

dyl_da_beast

it's a draw

 

 

 

 

 

thegreatauk

If it's a bishop's pawn or a rook's pawn it's a draw like here if it's any other pawn black win's. As someone already said the computer's don't have tablebase's so they don't recognize this as a draw all they see is you up a queen.

Forkedupagain

I understand that it's a draw but shouldn't black be able to win this game with the correct moves?

thegreatauk

@Forkedupagain No this is a theoretical draw due to the stalemate trick.

Forkedupagain

After looking at the position a little longer I understand the blacks King cannot help and the game Is a draw.

Forkedupagain

Thanks.

Forkedupagain

Good trick to know.

MickinMD
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MickinMD

Stockfish says this is a draw but, as Black, I would have tried moving my Queen close to the White K and P with checks, then occasionally forcing the White King to f8, blocking the Pawn's advance or Pinning the Pawn and moving my Black King toward the Pawn like this after Black's move 70 in the actual game:

 

Petter_U

@mickynj: I'm just using the basic analysis here on chess.co, so if a stronger computer says I can win, that's interesting. But yes, it needs to go further back; once we're at move 64 here surely even Stockfish must agree that this is a draw, otherwise it's as wrong as chess.com's analysis.

 

@MickinMD: But can't the White king simply go back here? 20. Kh8 instead of 20. Kf8? That was the problem; I couldn't take the pawn as it would cause stalemate (which is what I ended up doing), and I couldn't keep going back and forth either since that would mean repetition. White simply doesn't have to go Kf8.

MickinMD

Petter - Yes, it's a draw if played correctly, but I would have forced him to show me he saw that he could abandon the Pawn and get a stalemate if it's taken.

pfren

Every modern engine knows this is a draw. Have no idea about the chess dot com analysis module.

Hint: to view the pic fullsize, rightclick it and open it in a new tab.

 

 

null

Rat1960

#15 @MichinMD - Yeah I always beat myself too.  Indeed so, if the pawn player attempts to defend the pawn rather than seeing the g8h8 stalemate resource the pawn player loses.

Rat1960
thegreatauk wrote:

If it's a bishop's pawn or a rook's pawn it's a draw like here if it's any other pawn black win's. As someone already said the computer's don't have tablebase's so they don't recognize this as a draw all they see is you up a queen.

#12 @mickynj
If the stronger side's king is far away. K+ versus K+P on the 7th is a draw is it is a a, c, f, or h pawn. For b,d,e,g pawns, the queen wins. It is worth learning how to win those positions. It's not complicated, but it is long
++++
( Posting does not allow double quoting for me ).
In the case of the bishop pawn on Sixth (as in my #4) if the queen can pin or force K to bishop 7th it is a win.
 

Rat1960

This is from a simultaneous white (to move) an IM and me black over 40 years ago. He offered a draw with the waffle that his pawn can reach the 7th, I accepted, (dumb kid), every body else at the club had lost, then he showed me the error of my ways.