Did I make the right decision? Pawn structure vs taking material - Chess Forums

garethpearce

Dec 22, 2019

0

#1

Hi all

So I'm playing as Black and I'm wondering if I made the right choice on move 12 in the above game. I'd care for some input.

Their bishop attacks my g7 pawn, pinning it to the rook and threatening mate on Queen g7 (the Queen isn't get able to move there, but easily could. I've castled that side.

My choice is between the aggressive move (which I took) of taking the bishop, but exposing my king and more defensive moves like (for instance) Nh5. Or Re8, ready to play g6, if the Queen moves over.

My moves after probably aren't perfect, so obviously happy to have alternative suggestions of what I should have done! But I'm more interested in the general principle of if I made the right call by taking material at the expense of my pawn structure. My feeling is that it probably wasn't the right call (it leads to a win, but only because they miss a discovered attack on their Queen, not out of anything I did). I already knew that my defensive options probably meant loosing the knight or bishop in return and this means that I sacrificed my pawn structure for the sake of taking a single pawn.

I considered taking and then Kh8, but I was worried about a Qh7 mate. Though, on reflection, My knight on f6 is well protected and does a good job of guarding that square.

What do you all think?

ArtNJ

Dec 22, 2019

0

#2

Queen's dont checkmate by themselves. White's knight ain't getting in to help anytime soon (map it out) and the bishop hitting h7 is irrelevant if the knight and king can defend that square. White can't easily bring a rook into the attack.

Black's edge actually increases by more than 3 points according to the computer on taking it. Why? Because while white gets no attack, black can use the gfile to attack. With the gfile, and unlike white, lots of pieces in the area, the attack will be real. White may have thought it was a sacrifice, but he was really just deliberately dropping a piece.

Beginners that learn about doubled pawns ALWAYS attach too much importance to them. What matters is if they are weak/winnable or may become so. Here, the doubled h6 pawn may eventually fall, giving one pawn for the piece, and zero attack. Laughable compensation even if black wasn't the one who gained an attack.

Rat1960

Dec 22, 2019

0

#3

"Queen's dont checkmate by themselves. " Exactly.
A simple rule is three attacking pieces against a rook and king has mating chances.
In the game above (move 13) the only black piece that cannot rush to the black king's defence is the queen rook,

the-kat-from-UNCLE

Dec 25, 2019

0

#4

12...Bg4 all the way, break out the bubbly. wasn’t his Bd3 beautiful ? you know when a guy plays a move like Bd3 and you take the piece, there is no need to worry about which route to victory you take.

st0ckfish

Dec 25, 2019

0

#5

No....it just feels random. You don't have enough pieces to attack.

Congrats on the win though!

ThrillerFan

Dec 26, 2019

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#6

ghost_of_pushwood wrote:

Just play 13... Kh8. After Rg8 it's likely that his king is the one that's been exposed.

And regarding the thread title, taking material should always take precedence over positional concepts like pawn structure.

That is such a fallacy! Yes, in this case, grabbing the material is right! But what about the following? Black played 29...Ke8 and lost. Only 1 move draws, and it is NOT 29...Re2+ and 30...Rxg2 (30.Kd3 wins for White). Only move is 29...Ke7, getting off the back rank. For full analysis, see pages 221-224 and 258 of "Small Steps 2 Success".

ThrillerFan

Dec 26, 2019

0

#7

ghost_of_pushwood wrote:

Not a fallacy at all. Material preponderance is by far the most important consideration is virtually all situations on the chessboard...as any walk through the Chess Analysis section should demonstrate all too readily to anyone with sufficient powers of discernment.

I wish I could face you over the board. I know just what to do against materialists, especially if you really would be dumb enough to take that g2-pawn in the diagram in post 7!

Prometheus_Fuschs

Dec 26, 2019

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#8

Hmmm, ThrillerFan does have a higher rating than ghost.

Prometheus_Fuschs

Dec 26, 2019

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#9

About the post, IMO the only way to know is calculate and see if:

a) You can hold the extra material or at least give it back for a good position.

b) You aren't mated.

In your case, taking the bishop was a good choice as you could also expose the enemy king and retain the won material.

llamonade2

Dec 27, 2019

0

#10

This isn't really material vs structure, it's material vs king safety.

Since white has so few attackers it's probably fine to take like you did.

garethpearce

Dec 27, 2019

0

#11

ghost_of_pushwood wrote:

Chebyshevv wrote:

This isn't really material vs structure...

When you put a piece on a square where it's hanging, "pawn structure" has nothing to do with it.

Pawn structure is a positional consideration that will certainly come into play once you stop dropping pieces (and learn to discern the difference between sacking them and dropping them). That's my point.

Thanks Ghost, you've been very helpful

llamonade2

Dec 27, 2019

0

#12

ghost_of_pushwood wrote:

Chebyshevv wrote:

This isn't really material vs structure...

When you put a piece on a square where it's hanging, "pawn structure" has nothing to do with it.

Pawn structure is a positional consideration that will certainly come into play once you stop dropping pieces (and learn to discern the difference between sacking them and dropping them). That's my point.

I didn't look at the whole game, in fact I only looked at Bh6 gxh.

llamonade2

Dec 27, 2019

0

#13

So yeah, now I see white is down two pieces. In those cases (which I guess is what you're saying) black can pretty much do anything he wants.

And in any case (which also might be what you said) doubling pawns isn't worth a minor piece in any position. Sure some piece sacs might tangentially involve doubled pawns, but you need more than "bad structure" to make up for a lost piece.

(note to beginners "piece" means a non-pawn).