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# Drawn position y/n?

• #1
Got to this position as white... I thought the opposite color bishop + pawn structure made up for the missing pawn, and was thus a draw. My opponent disagreed, and I ended up losing on time, although we were getting towards the 50 move rule.

Is this drawn, or is black winning?

• #2

Looks like a draw all day. So hard to win with opposite bishops and only pawns. I recently drew a game where I had 2 connected passed pawns and bishop vs opposite bishop. There's no way to make progress.

• #3

Yes, I would be pretty confident I could draw this with white against anyone.

Having said that, your opponent was within his rights to play on.

• #4

• #5

When you say you lost on time, I immediately assume this is a blitz game with no increment. In a regular games, yes, a clear draw with even just adequate play.  In blitz or fast time control, though, then time becomes a factor.  If your opponent has much more time, it is a valid strategy to try to win by the clock.

You might argue that winning by time doesn't show who the better chess player is, but managing the clock is just as important as managing your pieces.  If you play faster, use less time but get in a worse position and lose, how is that different from playing slower, using more time and then ultimately losing by the clock?

Maybe this wasn't a blitz game, but the general point remains.  Just something to keep in mind.

• #6

Draw, The game is closed and it is easily possible for both sides to have bishop and pawn fortresses. My prediction is that the kings will shuffle around for a bit, even if one side gets the opposition the bishop is a monster and with the materiel on the board there is no way to kick it off the defense of the pawns.

• #7

thanks guys. We reached the position with 8-9 mins left on my clock, and 16-17 on opponents. He called me a "moron" for offering a draw, and then shuffled his pieces for 8 minutes until I lost. 42 moves into the 50 move rule, and Final times were 0 on my clock and 4 minutes on his. I was pretty livid

• #8

You spent 8 minutes making 42 moves in that position? Hmm.

Also if the position is repeated 3 times you can claim a draw. So in the future move as little as possible. For example Kf2-g2-f2 over and over and if the black king and pawns come down, then switch to Bb5-c4-b5 over and over.

• #9

yes the position above is move 37. clocks at 8m - 16m, I run out of time on move 82. I was quite frustrated and bitter, and considered it unsportsmanlike for an opponent to play on with no chance to win, save on time. I don't believe an OTB opponent would ever behave as such. Especially as he taunts me during this time.

• #10

to clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong with losing on time, and if I'd only had 1 or 2 minutes left instead of 8, then id be more okay with it. But when you literally have nothing to play for and just aimlessly shuffle to avoid 3 repetition until your opponent times out.. Tactless

• #11

Along the lines of what SmithyQ was saying, even though this is a draw with correct play, your opponent judged (apparently correctly) that there were practical winning chances.

There's an old story about a game with Fischer where Fischer is a pawn up and his opponent offers him a draw. Fischer says something to the effect of "I don't know if it's a win, but I have an extra pawn so lets keep playing." Later the game was drawn, but the point is the theoretical evaluation is not the same as the practical evaluation. It's ok to try for a win from a drawn position if you think you have chances. And if you're on the defending side of a drawn position, don't relax just because it "should" be a draw.

• #12
APG817 wrote:

to clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong with losing on time, and if I'd only had 1 or 2 minutes left instead of 8, then id be more okay with it. But when you literally have nothing to play for and just aimlessly shuffle to avoid 3 repetition until your opponent times out.. Tactless

Well, on move 47 you inexplicably offer him a 2nd pawn. After that maybe the position really is a win. He doesn't take the pawn, but maybe it was moves like that which gave him hope.

• #13

Oh, and the final position is a win for him.

• #14

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Oh, and the final position is a win for him.

I really appreciate the analysis, although I believe your comment on 74, where white is in zugzwang is possibly incorrect, I think 75. h4! holds the balance. still. Also, 81. Bg2?? 81. Bc4! BlAck cannot capture the pawn on h3 and simultaneously force the bishop off f1. He has no way to capture the pawn that I see.
• #15

Chin, thank you for the reminder that a theoretical win/draw is not the same as a practical win/draw. i just gotta get better I guess

• #16

Once the king is in the corner like that, your bishop is in danger of being overworked. After 81.Bc4 Be5 black's plan is Kg3-h3-g4 winning both pawns. If the bishop defends the kingside, then black has that same sacrifice idea with c4 to create a passed pawn.

On move 43 you can play Bd3-c4 over and over. The only time you'd not is if black plays h5 (you ignore that) but then if he captures on g4 you would recapture. Other than that I think there's literally no legal combination of moves to stop the Bd3-c4 shuffle i.e. you could play it blindfold without even being told your opponent's moves.

• #17
APG817 wrote:

Chin, thank you for the reminder that a theoretical win/draw is not the same as a practical win/draw. i just gotta get better I guess

Carlsen is (or at least was) notorious for beating top pros in technically drawn endgames by finding ways to put pressure on them to keep being accurate. It happens to all of us

• #18

Took me a while to see what you meant about the overworked bishop. Bah

• #19

And I don't make the blindfold comment to be rude... I make it because it's an important idea... the idea of a fortress (which is a chess term). The idea of looking at a position from the point of view of your opponent, and sometimes you see that if you don't change anything, then they can't make progress. If you don't see that idea, then it's easy to get nervous and start moving yourself out of position.

• #20

Naw didn't take it as rude at all. If anything I was surprised you went through the effort of finding the full game and giving a solid critique.

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