I had to flip the board. Well white's rook is attacked by the bishop but the queen can pin the bishop to the black queen with Qa3 and then black is bust.
I won, but with best play...
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Wow, I totally missed that. Thanks!
Sep 2, 2018
0
#4
Dsmith42 wrote:
with only 1 pawn for the exchange, I had to think white can at least draw from the initial position with best play. I don't think he can force a win
After 2...Qf2 it's worse than that. White is in danger of losing. His pieces are passive and can't make a threat, meanwhile black has ideas like winning pawns and pushing his kingside to make a passed pawn.
After something like 3...e5 I wouldn't be surprised if black were almost winning (although an engine is not likely to see this, at least at first).
But yeah, other than that there was a tactic on move 1. I didn't notice it either.
Sep 2, 2018
0
#5
Well, an engine finds perpetuals and other cheap drawing nonsense after 3...e5, such a jerk the engine is.
But black has zero worries and white has to be accurate all the time.
@Preggo_Basashi White does *not* play 1. Rb1 ? but 1. Qa3 !
It seems Mr Smith got caught up in the excitement of black's lesser material potentially winning.
His whole line and post is an oversight. The move just played was ... Bxc3 ?
Please read posts #2 and #3
Sep 2, 2018
0
#7
Ah, I but addressed this in post 4, I said I missed that tactic when I looked at the position.
But of course turning on the engine I found it instantly. The OP can click the little analysis board just as easily I can.
Less obvious to the OP I think is that even without that tactic white needs to be careful. OP evaluated it as white is drawing or better. I'm letting him know he had it backwards.
Mr Smith is teaching players practically, he does not use an engine.
Part of that teaching is when he posts these positions he wants to know what other players see.
As such I look for forks, skewers, pins, attacking multiple material at the same time.
" I had to think white can at least draw from the initial position with best play. "
The first line I saw was 1. Rc1 (multiple attack) Bd2 (hmmmm) 2. Rg1 (where else) Be3 (defend b6 AND attack rook).
How has he got it backwards ? His line is black mates.
Now me as a general rule when facing queen lead mates I look for files, ranks and diagonals where I can move my queen to attack theirs. So 2. Qa4 sort of does that (eyeing up f4) but even with that line I would figure on Qc7 as that attacks f7 and f4
Sep 3, 2018
0
#9
Rat1960 wrote:
Mr Smith is teaching players practically, he does not use an engine.
Do you mean these posts are to teach players and he already knew the answer?
As for the games, of course during the games there is no engine, but afterwards it's as easy at the button in the bottom left corner of every chess.com diagram. That's what I meant.
And I did tell him what I saw. I also told him what I didn't see (I didn't see Qa3).
Rat1960 wrote:
As such I look for forks, skewers, pins, attacking multiple material at the same time.
" I had to think white can at least draw from the initial position with best play. "
The first line I saw was 1. Rc1 (multiple attack) Bd2 (hmmmm) 2. Rg1 (where else) Be3 (defend b6 AND attack rook).
Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too. It's hard to find something that looks good for white.
Rat1960 wrote:
How has he got it backwards ?
Like I said, because his evaluation is that white is equal or better.
You even said yourself that Smith's opinion is "white at least draws"
But in reality black at least draws. Black is equal or better. An engine might draw with white, but a human would probably lose. I'd be playing this position for a win with black all day... and if you can't come up with a dozen accurate moves while I leisurely make threats for dozens of moves, then you lose.
Rat1960 wrote:
2. Qa4 sort of does that (eyeing up f4)
Ok, but notice the e pawn is passed, and (almost) every square on its road to queening is protected. That's part of why white should be scared during a real game.
Sep 3, 2018
0
#11
So I hope that answers your question more thoroughly (of why I think he had it backwards).
He posts a position and says (more or less): "I won because of a big blunder, but how would a real game go?"
I'm saying in a real game white is in danger of losing, and black is very comfortable.
I think OP didn't realize this because the material count said white is ahead by one.
And while the engine helps me find the moves (above) I had already thought to myself that white should be lost. I only put it into the engine to find black's win, and that's when the engine shows me white can draw if white is a genius... in other words I think my evaluation was very practical.
Again, thanks for the input. Very interesting and valuable insights from both of you.
And @Rat1960 is right, I'm trying to teach these young players practical, over-the-board chess. The two main opponents I have at my local club are both much better than I was at their respective ages, and the younger of the two in particular would instantly be a much stronger player than me if he cleaned up his endgame play. His middlegame tactics are already much better than my own.
Our club used to have an Expert in it, and since he had to move away, I've been trying to help these players improve. It seems, however, that my OTB analysis needs to get better if I am really to assist them. I have gotten better since he left, but I'm still quite a ways from his level. I use these message boards to help fill in the gaps in that analysis.
The problem with engine use, particularly with young players, is that it doesn't look at alternate lines. The odds of an opponent actually following the engine line are small, and the alternate lines they find will have their own unique complications to work through.
Club game, stretched out over two weeks, lost an exchange in the opening (a Reti which transposed to an Open Sicilian), but with some tricks managed to get a pawn back. This is where we adjourned during the first session, with white to move:
I had just captured a pawn on c3, which was hanging due to 1. bxc3? Qxc3+! winning the rook with check. Obviously my opponent missed the mating tactic at the end there, but with only 1 pawn for the exchange, I had to think white can at least draw from the initial position with best play. I don't think he can force a win due to the strength of my bishop and the inactivity of his king, but I'm not 100% sure about any of this.