I welcome any analysis you guys may have. But the real reason i'm posting is I wanted someone to show me how to set up conditional moves for an online game. But, now that we get into it, I really don't know how to do those diagrams either. Is there a help page that could explain it?
Interesting game. Please help.
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timab wrote:
I welcome any analysis you guys may have. But the real reason i'm posting is I wanted someone to show me how to set up conditional moves for an online game. But, now that we get into it, I really don't know how to do those diagrams either. Is there a help page that could explain it?
Nevermind I found the help page
[COMMENT DELETED]
timab wrote:
stephen_33 wrote:
timab, It would really help us all if you would post a diagram instead of a list of moves but here's one I put together with some likely moves following 12.Qb4. You are right to claim that white is still in a weak position but does have a way out with careful play.
These are just my first thoughts - don't claim they're perfect but as 'transpo' has stated above, d4 does seem to save the day for white.
I agree, how do I make those diagrams?
But, black still comes out ahead in that line, you just stopped before it happened.
16. d4 Ncxe4
17. Nxe4 Nxe4
And there's a lot of ways the next move can go, but they pretty much all end up with black taking a free pawn.
After 16.d4 Ncxe4
17.dxe5
transpo wrote:
timab wrote:
stephen_33 wrote:
timab, It would really help us all if you would post a diagram instead of a list of moves but here's one I put together with some likely moves following 12.Qb4. You are right to claim that white is still in a weak position but does have a way out with careful play.
These are just my first thoughts - don't claim they're perfect but as 'transpo' has stated above, d4 does seem to save the day for white.
I agree, how do I make those diagrams?
But, black still comes out ahead in that line, you just stopped before it happened.
16. d4 Ncxe4
17. Nxe4 Nxe4
And there's a lot of ways the next move can go, but they pretty much all end up with black taking a free pawn.
After 16.d4 Ncxe4
17.dxe5
17...Nxe2 is not possible in this position. Did you mean 17...Nxf2? or 17...Nxd2?
I think I did this on my 2nd post, after 12 Qb4 Rxa6
13 Qc4 then 13...Be6 14 Qb5 c6 and 15Qb4 Nxd3
If 16 Qa7 Rb7 etc.
or as Stephen pointed out 15...Ra4 seems to win the queen.
I have yet to set up the pieces, so this may not be accurate.
The only thing I will say with certainty is that black enjoys an easier game at this point.
If you will look at the diagram that you posted it was 12.Qb4
Also take a look at timab's original post. It is written clearly 12.Qb4
I intended 12 Qb4 as I was intending to improve on timab's diagram. It is now corrected.
I posted that after 12...Rxa6 13.d4
These posts should be numbered.
I was repeating a line in my 2nd post on the first page, where I attempt to discredit 13 Qc4 as timab has 13 Qc4 is his diagram above my line, and I think it can be improved.
Escapest_Pawn wrote:
These posts should be numbered.
I was repeating a line in my 2nd post on the first page, where I attempt to discredit 13 Qc4 as timab has 13 Qc4 is his diagram above my line, and I think it can be improved.
13.Qc4?!, the correct move that I posted is 13.d4
timab then posted 16...Ncxe4 17.NxN NxN. I was going to point out to him that the move # in his notation is wrong. It should read 13...Ncxe4 14.NxN NxN.
My response to his 13...Ncxe4 is 14.dxe5
I remember your 13 d4 and thinking it was clever as it both threatens the knight and provides as escape route for white's queen.
We discussed it briefly in my 3rd comment (page 1) and your comment immediately following it.
As I said, I was correcting tamab's line in his above diagrams, which we both seem to agree are improveable.
My instincts are that the best (and probably least complicated) way to play against 13 d4 is ...Rb6 to defend the rook with the pawn without loss of tempo. 14 Qc4 exd 15cxd Ncxd or 15Qxd4 Bxf3 16 Nxf3 Nxe4 or 16Rxf3 and black can kick white around a bit with ...Ne6 and then...Ng5 and ...Re1 etc but I think to no great advantage. I kinda like 16 Rxf3 Qa8 as now he has an extra piece on e4 and if 17Re3 Nfxe4 18Nxe4?? Nb3 (18Rxe4 is better) but 17...Re1 is probably better for black.
Maybe 16 gxf3 was necessary.
TonyH wrote:
the fact your talking about points is a strong indicator. Not worth my time
So what, is this how your ego handles losing an argument? Use poor grammar to try to discredit me?
You're right! Points have no place in a discussion about chess. You can always pull out your imaginary bishop at the end of the game when you need just one more piece to checkmate the other person. By the way, there's no immediate threat of mate from white. And with a point disadvantage it can be awfully difficult to set one up.
White is not in a strong enough position to make up for the points they will be down. I defy you to show me a line where white comes out on top (after move 12).
Before we continue it is necessary for myself to divest the following. During the 1980's and 1990's the Poisoned Pawn variation of the Sicilian Najdorf was very popular. Thousands of games were played by GMs and IMs during those decades. As a result there are reams of theory on the Poisoned Pawn. Part of my opening repertoire was and is the Sicilian Najdorf. Because of all of this I found it necessary to study the Poisoned Pawn. Today I know 400 subvariations of the Poisoned Pawn cold. For this reason timab's game that is the subject of this post is very familiar to me, just with colors reversed. I have memorized patterns in my mind which were triggered when I was analyzing the position, which caused those same patterns in timab's game to jump up off the board and smacked me on the forehead in a flash. In timab's game, it is Black trying to prove to White that he has violated the opening principle that states you should not go pawn grabbing in the opening, especially not with your Q.
Anyone reading this post can view it from whatever perspective they choose. I would surmise that some will see it as chess psychology. I can only make the personally candid stament that I am on this site to "pay it forward." My participation in this post is me paying it forward.
After 13...Rb6 14.Qc4 exd4 15.e5
If you would like, I can outline the features of timab's game which can help in getting a bird's eyeview of the analysis of the position.
transpo wrote:
Before we continue it is necessary for myself to divest the following. During the 1980's and 1990's the Poisoned Pawn variation of the Sicilian Najdorf was very popular. Thousands of games were played by GMs and IMs during those decades. As a result there are reams of theory on the Poisoned Pawn. Part of my opening repertoire was and is the Sicilian Najdorf. Because of all of this I found it necessary to study the Poisoned Pawn. Today I know 400 subvariations of the Poisoned Pawn cold. For this reason timab's game that is the subject of this post is very familiar to me, just with colors reversed. I have memorized patterns in my mind which were triggered when I was analyzing the position, which caused those same patterns in timab's game to jump up off the board and smacked me on the forehead in a flash. In timab's game, it is Black trying to prove to White that he has violated the opening principle that states you should not go pawn grabbing in the opening, especially not with your Q.
Anyone reading this post can view it from whatever perspective they choose. I would surmise that some will see it as chess psychology. I can only make the personally candid stament that I am on this site to "pay it forward." My participation in this post is me paying it forward.
After 13...Rb6 14.Qc4 exd4 15.e5
If you would like, I can outline the features of timab's game which can help in getting a bird's eyeview of the analysis of the position.
Not sure I would respond like that as black.
How does this look?
That still leaves white in a better position. hmmm.
@timab
Your asessment of the position after 13...Ncxe4 is correct, White has the better of it, but he has to be careful in converting the winning advantage into a won position.
The problem that White sets Black with the move 14.dxe5 is that it is a double threat, exNf6 and Nxe4 Nxe4 Qxe4. Even if Black tries to win the exchange by playing NxRf2. After exNf6 both Black's N at f2 and B at g4 are enprise. There are one too many attacks for Black to deal with simultaneously.
A better strategy for Black is to gain tempi on White by harrassing his Q, and simultaneously placing your pawns and pieces on more aggressive squares to gain the initiative (attack) given the position. ...Ra4, ...c6, ...exd4, ...Re8 etc. ...c6 is especially effective because even though it is not directly defende by any other Black pawn or piece, it is indirectly defended by the fact that if White captures it with his Q, it is trapped within 5 moves in every variation. That is why White is forced after ...c6 to play Qe2 or Qf1. At that point Black has the beginnings of the initiative in the game.
transpo wrote:
@timab
Your asessment of the position after 13...Ncxe4 is correct, White has the better of it, but he has to be careful in converting the winning advantage into a won position.
The problem that White sets Black with the move 14.dxe5 is that it is a double threat, exNf6 and Nxe4 Nxe4 Qxe4. Even if Black tries to win the exchange by playing NxRf2. After exNf6 both Black's N at f2 and B at g4 are enprise. There are one too many attacks for Black to deal with simultaneously.
A better strategy for Black is to gain tempi on White by harrassing his Q, and simultaneously placing your pawns and pieces on more aggressive squares to gain the initiative (attack) given the position. ...Ra4, ...c6, ...exd4, ...Re8 etc. ...c6 is especially effective because even though it is not directly defende by any other Black pawn or piece, it is indirectly defended by the fact that if White captures it with his Q, it is trapped within 5 moves in every variation. That is why White is forced after ...c6 to play Qe2 or Qf1. At that point Black has the beginnings of the initiative in the game.
Oh yeah. I knew there was an out for black.
timab, It would really help us all if you would post a diagram instead of a list of moves but here's one I put together with some likely moves following 12.Qb4. You are right to claim that white is still in a weak position but does have a way out with careful play.
These are just my first thoughts - don't claim they're perfect but as 'transpo' has stated above, d4 does seem to save the day for white.
I agree, how do I make those diagrams?
But, black still comes out ahead in that line, you just stopped before it happened.
16. d4 Ncxe4
17. Nxe4 Nxe4
And there's a lot of ways the next move can go, but they pretty much all end up with black taking a free pawn.