Is there aay to win this position? I played it as a draw...

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Avatar of zezpwn44

 

 

 

 

 

 

BLACK TO PLAY.

It seems like both players were stuck.  Black had to protect the back row, and white had to protect his pawn one space away from queening.

Is there any way that either player could have won this game?

Avatar of khpa21

...a5 followed by ...Kb4, ...a4, and ...Ka3 looks like a very strong plan

Avatar of jerry2468

That fails to Rxa4+

Avatar of khpa21
jerry2468 wrote:

That fails to Rxa4+


Well, that's a problem, but it's not the biggest one. White can just bring the king around to the queenside and keep any Exchange sac on h7 shenanigans from working. This means that the only plan that gives winning chances for Black is to sac the a-pawn, put the king on c3, and then use ...Re8+ to pick off the d3-pawn.

Avatar of khpa21

I'll try some different plans against Fritz 8 and see if anything works

EDIT: White draws by bringing the king up to support the h7-pawn

Avatar of pathfinder416

I think Black begins with Re8+, intending to bring the rook behind the White K and h-pawn. White's central pawns can't survive, though Black might need to give up his a-pawn to get them.

Avatar of zezpwn44

Black moving his rook with the intention to move it off the back row allows white to queen with h8=Q

Avatar of zezpwn44

 

What if white countered Khpa's plan with that, though?  Black's king can't leave the a-file without giving up his pawn.

Any plans to get the rook involved risk white queening... I can't see any good options for black, even though black is up on material.

Avatar of RoJac
jerry2468 wrote:

That fails to Rxa4+


I don't get it. What's wrong with the plan first sugested (...a5 followed by ...Kb4, ...a4, and ...Ka3)? Black will be defending the a pawn from b4 so Rxa4 is simply me by Kxa4.

After black gets his king to a3 and pawn on a4 (white can only wait it seems) black can play the maneuver Rf8-f2 since the bishop is guarding the h8 square. White can try to play Rd7 in response to Rf8 because the threat of Rxd4+ followed by h8=Q+ prevents the next move Rf2. But Re7 lets black play Kxa2 and queen his own pawn.

Basically black will play ...a5 followed by ...Kb4, ...a4, ...Ka3 and Rf8 with the idea of Rf2. This looks winning. After all, white is down a piece.

Avatar of zezpwn44

I'll try to figure something out if black sacrifices the a-pawn...

 

 

Doesn't look good for black...

Avatar of zezpwn44
RoJac wrote:
jerry2468 wrote:

That fails to Rxa4+


I don't get it. What's wrong with the plan first sugested (...a5 followed by ...Kb4, ...a4, and ...Ka3)? Black will be defending the a pawn from b4 so Rxa4 is simply me by Kxa4.

After black gets his king to a3 and pawn on a4 (white can only wait it seems) black can play the maneuver Rf8-f2 since the bishop is guarding the h8 square. White can try to play Re7 in response to Rf8 because the threat of Rxd4+ followed by h8=Q+ prevents the next move Rf2. But Re7 lets black play Kxa2 and queen his own pawn.

Basically black will play ...a5 followed by ...Kb4, ...a4, ...Ka3 and Rf8 with the idea of Rf2. This looks winning. After all, white is down a piece.


If white plays a3 after black plays a5, Kb4 is an illegal move. 

Avatar of RoJac

LOL. Looks like we posted the exact same time. Laughing

Avatar of RoJac
zezpwn44 wrote:
RoJac wrote:
jerry2468 wrote:

That fails to Rxa4+


I don't get it. What's wrong with the plan first sugested (...a5 followed by ...Kb4, ...a4, and ...Ka3)? Black will be defending the a pawn from b4 so Rxa4 is simply me by Kxa4.

After black gets his king to a3 and pawn on a4 (white can only wait it seems) black can play the maneuver Rf8-f2 since the bishop is guarding the h8 square. White can try to play Re7 in response to Rf8 because the threat of Rxd4+ followed by h8=Q+ prevents the next move Rf2. But Re7 lets black play Kxa2 and queen his own pawn.

Basically black will play ...a5 followed by ...Kb4, ...a4, ...Ka3 and Rf8 with the idea of Rf2. This looks winning. After all, white is down a piece.


If white plays a3 after black plays a5, Kb4 is an illegal move. 


The plan still works: 1...a5 2.a3 Rf8 and if 2.Rd7 Kxa3. 0-1.

Avatar of khpa21

Avatar of Martin_Stahl

 

I think Kc3 would be a blunder there. I prefer, in that line, Re5+. It plays out to a drawish line, that way too (my variation is a draw according to nalimov tablebases). Though, I'm not the best endgame player so there may be a better resource there. However. I still like Re5+ line earlier. Still probably drawish but seems a bit better to me.

 

That said, I haven't analyzed that fully and it may not work out.

Avatar of khpa21

Avatar of pathfinder416

Assuming the weakest move available doesn't lend itself well to persuasive analysis.

The idea behind Re8+ is to bring the rook from h8 (a poor location) to h2 (an active location), from where (1) it stops the h-pawn from promoting (the White K can't help) and (2) it can harass the White K. The Black B stays on d4, until Black has taken the White central pawns and begins to push his passer ... at which time the B is decisive.

Avatar of pathfinder416

Might be worth adding: White cannot promote the h-pawn without help from Black, because the White K and R cannot simultaneously support the push to h8. One or the other, but not both ... unless Black helps by moving the B/d4 away. This, btw, is part of why Black wins the game.