Thoughts on my 9th and 10th moves?

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catmaster0

Short version, ninth and tenth moves seem to be weak, but I'd like to hear from people why. I move my queen up to set up a castle, and I then castle the following move. The initial move is deemed a weakness by a basic computer glance, and the castle further so, implying that entire thought process had a flaw I overlooked. For the rest of the game I was comfortably safe or in control, with an early scoop before they saw if I could finish them using the superior position I had acquired. 

For my ninth move, I see my queen is now close to being pinned to my king by their rook, the column is lined that way but the pawn is in the way. If they could break it, they could punish me, but I did not see their way to do so. My opponent tried to rush this, but by move 10 they had lost their chance even as they attacked that pawn for all it was worth. 

When I set the position up vs the highest level computer they offered in finish vs computer they chose pawn to c5 to attack my knight instead on their move 10. I see some merits to the attack, but I don't think I see them all and I don't think exploring the computer's variations will cover it, certain concepts I don't think about seem likely at play. I'm not one to say what the computer says is the word of god, but it obviously sees more than a player of my caliber, so I'm going to give it credit for that. I used it to find moves to take a closer look at in situations where I might not have given it a second thought, and I tried to spot the clear edge myself, but I think this is a case where the input of others is going to be more valuable. 

So anyways, do you agree that my 9th and 10th moves had problems, and if so, is the computer's suggestion a good way to punish that weakness. If not, what would a better punishment be? For my own gameplay, what might have been better moves than what I did for 9 and 10? If you see anything else worth noting by all means feel free to say so, I just noticed moves 9 and 10 as standing out against me in that game. 

llamonade2

Setups like this with Qe2 and 0-0-0 are fun to play. I've done it before and then launched a big attack.

But no matter how fun a setup looks, your opponent gets to make moves too wink.png So you have to weigh the positives and the negatives.

9...d5 with 10...c5 and 11...d4 (as suggested by the engine) mean black's pawn storm is coming a lot faster. Also this obviously claims more space and seals your b2 bishop. After 9.0-0 you can still attack his king, but your king is safer, and black has to live with his small center (no d5 for black).

But even without the engine's d5-c5-d4 push, lets imagine black plays 9...Nbd7 10.0-0-0 Nc5. Both player's attacks will take many moves before a real threat on the king is made. Looking at this imagined position, IMO there's nothing special here that should compel white to go for Qe2 and 0-0-0.

My two cents.

llamonade2

By the way I usually get the sort of piece setup as white (and 0-0-0) in a Sicilian, not a 1.e4 e5 game happy.png

ArtNJ

Give black some other two moves besides bf8 and re8 and maybe qe2 would be a good idea, but your lining your queen up with his rook.  Its just not something a stronger player would bother to even look at. Having not bothered to analyze it myself, I'm frankly surprised that with best play the engine thinks black is only very slightly ahead.  As was already mentioned, 0-0 is much more natural and gives white the more comfortable position and a modest edge as a result.  

blueemu

Yes, the idea of Q-side castling seems somewhat artificial in that position.

Rat1960

I thought it was a good game to study.

4. ... Be7, knights before bishops ?
5. b3, find that curious.

7. Bb2 hmmmm.
7. ... Re8
Not me. I think black should open up the centre, since he is castled
and white is not.
The first I saw was: 7. ... c5 (kick knight) 8. Ne2 d5 9. e5 c4
but that was not really cutting it
7. ... d5 8. e5 Ng4 9. Qe2 Nxe5 10. QxNe5 Bf6 11. Qf4 Re8+ 12. Kd1 c5
where black gets the piece back and the king in the open is worth an isolated pawn.

8. Nd2, I would have played 0-0
8. ... Bf8, nah. It has to be ... d5, go back with the bishop is just wrong, it gives up all the counters
on the white bishop.
For example: 8. ... d5 9. e5 Ng4 10. e6 (interference) Bxe6 11. NxBe6 Bf6 (attacking Bb2)
Other 10. are no better.
+++
Why all the waffle, because strike while the iron is hot
and the extra development tempo's white has been allowed now makes
9. ... Nbd7 a better choice.

Certainly 10. ... d5xe4 is a bad choice, when 10. ... c5 (kick knight) 11. N4f3
means black can ponder the joys of ... Qa5 or 11. ... Nc6
For example: 10. ... c5 11. N4f3 Nc6 12. Rhe1 Qa5 13. BxNf6(say) gxBf6 14. Kb1 c4

This means 11. ... NxNe4 giving up a developed piece (hate that) is better than ... Nbd7
which creates development problems for the queen bishop.

12. ... c5, huh? this just moves the knight and exposes the queen to the rook.
Not that I can find a line for black. Just look at the board, white is nicely developed
apart from say Rhe1
12. ... Nd7 13. Rhe1 g6 (say) 14. Nf3 Bb4 15. Qe3

14. ... f5??, pity 14. ... Bf5 since the x-ray on queen is 2v1
15. Bd5+ oh 15. Qc4+
16. QxQe7 how about 16. Qd2 Qd7 17. Qh6 (threat Ng5,Qh7#)

catmaster0

Sorry for the late response, had a sudden computer issue later that day and crashed in a game, just recently got it fixed. I will be taking a closer look at this soon. Going to make a thread for best way to pull up an empty board for the purposes of analyzing moves when I don't have access to a physical chessboard. 

 

Thank you for all the responses so far!

Rat1960

@catmaster0
Here is my website: http://www.montegodata.co.uk/Chess/Board.html
It is a bit clunky with get/set fen. To manually set a position press legal and drag pieces around the board. There is no delete so you have to drop a piece on another piece. 
Press legal a second time to reactivate the board.
Or here: http://www.montegodata.co.uk/Chess/Player.html for a busy page.
If anything is broke, tough I don't code anymore.

catmaster0
Rat1960 wrote:

I thought it was a good game to study.

4. ... Be7, knights before bishops ?

No idea, did not expect it either. 
5. b3, find that curious.

My answer due to the above move removing the bishop from defending the pawn, so I could get my own bishop in b2. 

7. Bb2 hmmmm.

New plan to attack at the diagonal crossing their king, and nailing the knight to open up may eventually become a good idea. I do have my bishops aligned along adjacent diagonals, which seems useful. 
7. ... Re8
Not me. I think black should open up the centre, since he is castled
and white is not.
The first I saw was: 7. ... c5 (kick knight) 8. Ne2 d5 9. e5 c4

I have a favorable pawn exchange fighting for c4 leaving me up a pawn and still pointed at their knight on f6. A possibly annoying queen sacrifice could be in the future, but nothing thrilling about that position to me, so I could see why you might have discarded it. 
but that was not really cutting it
7. ... d5 8. e5 Ng4 9. Qe2 Nxe5 10. QxNe5 Bf6 11. Qf4 Re8+ 12. Kd1 c5
where black gets the piece back and the king in the open is worth an isolated pawn.

I like this better. I so want to protect my king so it isn't forced to move, but it does seem moving out of the way ends better for me. This hurts and does show some painful lines against me and earlier than expected. I'll have to explore this a bit. 

8. Nd2, I would have played 0-0

Faster, while I thought castling on the other side would help more so my pawns could come down this relieves pressure and gets my own goals out of the way sooner and smoother, especially in light of your previous ideas.  
8. ... Bf8, nah. It has to be ... d5, go back with the bishop is just wrong, it gives up all the counters
on the white bishop.

All counters on the white bishop? I did not understand that statement, the example below did not clarify it to me, although I found it useful for other things. 
For example: 8. ... d5 9. e5 Ng4 10. e6 (interference) Bxe6 11. NxBe6 Bf6 (attacking Bb2)

I'm going to have to look into where those lines head, lots of pressure points all over the board where it is left off. 
Other 10. are no better.
+++
Why all the waffle, because strike while the iron is hot
and the extra development tempo's white has been allowed now makes
9. ... Nbd7 a better choice.

This move did not make sense to me, I do not see what the knight is doing and the basic computer scale did not indicate a favorable review of that move either, putting us from black's favor to even.

Certainly 10. ... d5xe4 is a bad choice, when 10. ... c5 (kick knight) 11. N4f3
means black can ponder the joys of ... Qa5 or 11. ... Nc6
For example: 10. ... c5 11. N4f3 Nc6 12. Rhe1 Qa5 13. BxNf6(say) gxBf6 14. Kb1 c4

I'm ith you until move 14 where white gets my bishop thrown into their knight. I would like to keep my bishop with where that queen is and that knight seems to do little in comparison. I would want to open up space to avoid trapping my white squared bishop but it seems the computer views my alternatives of moving up my pawn or queen in the e file as sub-optimal and moves the king to b1 instead. I will have to explore those lines to get a better idea here.

This means 11. ... NxNe4 giving up a developed piece (hate that) is better than ... Nbd7
which creates development problems for the queen bishop.

While I don't disagree, this comment seems a bit random considering that's what they already did, if I'm following your train of thought here. 

12. ... c5, huh? this just moves the knight and exposes the queen to the rook.
Not that I can find a line for black. Just look at the board, white is nicely developed
apart from say Rhe1

Agreed, was not sure what they were doing, not that I saw any great moves either, but that one seemed particularly counterproductive. 
12. ... Nd7 13. Rhe1 g6 (say) 14. Nf3 Bb4 15. Qe3

Computer really hates that bishop opening, attacking the rook, but paving the way for a queen/bishop checkmate for white. The computer really thinks black kills themselves with that bishop move in fact, though while I see the pressure I am not sure I see the extremity. 

14. ... f5??, pity 14. ... Bf5 since the x-ray on queen is 2v1

I like that move better, though I see the bishop taking the pawn at b2 and possible way to compensate for that, might have been what I'd have done in a similar spot myself. The computer likes to stick the rook in the back rank to lock stuff up going 15.Bxf5Qxe2 16.Rxe2Rxe2 17.Rd8 


15. Bd5+ oh 15. Qc4+ Hm, less direct for me than getting my bishop out of the way, but it trades down nicely as well. I'll look into those lines further.
16. QxQe7 how about 16. Qd2 Qd7 17. Qh6 (threat Ng5,Qh7#)

Oh this looks really nice, need to dig into a few endings for that.

Responses in bold. Sorry for the late response, schedule has gotten a bit busier and it took me a bit to get into the mindset to properly look over these options. I made mistakes on the moves a few times and had to learn some formatting, guess I have some more research to do to get used to chess notation, but I eventually got there. Inserted this to list your deviations for more effective scanning on my part. Thank you for the post!

 

catmaster0
Rat1960 wrote:

@catmaster0
Here is my website: http://www.montegodata.co.uk/Chess/Board.html
It is a bit clunky with get/set fen. To manually set a position press legal and drag pieces around the board. There is no delete so you have to drop a piece on another piece. 
Press legal a second time to reactivate the board.
Or here: http://www.montegodata.co.uk/Chess/Player.html for a busy page.
If anything is broke, tough I don't code anymore.

Nice! I think I'm getting finally starting to get settled into the chess.com analysis feature, but still good to know other tools.