Unwinnable game (according to engine) at +6.0?

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Wcndave

https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/pgn/pL97dHvop/analysis

Engine says Kd7, Qf5+, Ke8, Kg6+ repeatedly, resulting in perpetual and draw.

Why can the engine not see that and offer better moves?

Steven-Alker

Because there aren't any? Ke7 and Bg5+ loses him his queen. Or am I missing the point?
Instead of perpetual, e6+ surely wins. I too have found that the engine sometimes takes a winning position and leads itself to a draw!

Wcndave
Steven-Alker wrote:

I too have found that the engine sometimes takes a winning position and leads itself to a draw!

Yes, this is my point. I was looking at a game with bishop sac that leads to +6 winning position, and was wondering how easy it was to win from there (often with a sack less than critical moves end up in a worse position...)
The engine says you should take a draw.
I would have thought the engine could do better than that.

Steven-Alker

It does and in my experience does get stuck but only in the analysis board. The version of Stockfish we use is not the most powerful (!) but the analysis-review version often points out a potential winning move that leads to an advantage that is 8 moves away! I would never find that. In game Analysis-Review never leads to a draw. Bots never play for a draw.
The analysis board is powerful enough to get you caught if you use it in a game with the engine turned on, but it will not see a position beyond one where and easy draw is available. At that level, it is not infallible, just better than we are unless it hits a loop.
These are my experiences and my conclusions are really just suppositions!

Steven-Alker

PS: The version in lychess gets stuck in draw-loops as well!

paristarr

nope, then the top line is actually e6+

Steven-Alker

Yes! That wins but I have not looked at what happens if the king runs. Whatever, he loses his queen or gets mated by a bishop. Nearly game over thanks to your sacrifices.

pfren

White is winning easily.

A normal offline engine can see that, or something like that, in a couple of seconds. ChessDotCom's online engine will spit out nonsense if it's not configured and operates at the default 1 sec per move and 3 sec max thinking time.


 
I have tried this stupid Vienna line 3 times in a thematic correspondence tournament, and got nowhere- Black has an absolutely fine game.
 
Despair
pfren wrote:

White is winning easily.

A normal offline engine can see that, or something like that, in a couple of seconds. ChessDotCom's online engine will spit out nonsense if it's not configured and operates at the default 1 sec per move and 3 sec max thinking time.


first time ive seen a IM at 1800 blitz

Despair

I know you dont care about online ratings though

MaestroDelAjedrez2025

I massively care about online ratings. I want to have a really really great online rating

Despair
MaestroDelAjedrez2025 wrote:

I massively care about online ratings. I want to have a really really great online rating

I just want grass

pfren
Despair έγραψε:
pfren wrote:

White is winning easily.

A normal offline engine can see that, or something like that, in a couple of seconds. ChessDotCom's online engine will spit out nonsense if it's not configured and operates at the default 1 sec per move and 3 sec max thinking time.


first time ive seen a IM at 1800 blitz

Isn't it lovely when your rating attracts stupid comments?

Saphyria

there you go

Wcndave
Saphyria wrote:

there you go

Not quite sure where I am going....

Perhaps I was not good at being clear in the first place ;-)

I was doing a practice drill, and remembered that I need to sac the bishop, but could not immediately see why that was going to be winning. So I played it out on chess.com and sure enough I am +6. However I wondered what the best way to win from there was, I could not see anything super obvious, and down a bishop, making the wrong moves could take me from +6 to -3 in no time at all!
(Black has to play 9.. Be6 to prevent white making the sac, so I just put out 9.. a6 as a random different move)

However, instead of showing me how to press the advantage, the engine showed me how to draw. I get that the default setting is 1sec with 5 sec max time and 3 lines, however that Fast setting is meant to be 3270, so really it shouldn't be going for a draw...

As someone said, engines don't want to draw, so why would it do it in this case - just seems rather odd.

Thanks for all the replies!

Drewjz
MaestroDelAjedrez2025 wrote:

I massively care about online ratings. I want to have a really really great online rating

thats only because you only have chess ratings online, and dont have a FIDE rating like IMs do.

Despair
pfren wrote:
Despair έγραψε:
pfren wrote:

White is winning easily.

A normal offline engine can see that, or something like that, in a couple of seconds. ChessDotCom's online engine will spit out nonsense if it's not configured and operates at the default 1 sec per move and 3 sec max thinking time.


first time ive seen a IM at 1800 blitz

Isn't it lovely when your rating attracts stupid comments?

cope old man

Steven-Alker

The comments about rating points are rather petty and unworthy of this platform. Wcndave had a valid and interesting point with a conundrum which deserved an answer. Several good answers were provided, and interesting ideas were explored.
This squabbling like children is diminishing the value of the post and obscuring the good replies made in good faith.