GatoNegro> AND... after Nd1 it not possible to play Rb1-e1 because the first rank is blocked by the knight on d1! please!!!!!
What are you talking about? This is getting silly. Re1 means "Move the rook on h1 to e1". It does not mean take the other rook and magically hop it there. I'm going to go offline to cook some Spaghetti... good luck. :)
I think that closed position thing is a bit of a cliche anyway. A bit like saying Fischer didnt understand 'murky' positions. I'd still have listened to what he had to say about one. Besides, he said to check for tactics, like you suggested the pawn on b3 was undefended.
Okay, let's asume that white can exchange a pair of rooks. After for example:
1. Nd1, Kb7
2. Re1, Rh3
3. Re3, Rxe3
4. Nxe3, Ka7
We reach this position: still I don't see a winning variation.
Hmm, well there is QxR instead of NxR which would allow the Nb2 swapping off the knight.
In the position you give, there is a very time-consuming manoeuvre putting the knight on h4, queen on h3, then shifting the knight to f3, moving the bishop to f6, then Ng5 etc. Don't know if black can stop this.
Okay, then let's assume that white can trade of a pair of rooks and also trades the knights. Be careful for an endgame with opposite colored bishops. Do you see an win after for example in this variation:
(variation can be replayed on this board)
Okay, I had my spaghetti (yum!). Yes, that line is what I mentioned in my first post.
Your focus on forced wins is why you gave up 1/2 point. If you don't see any, look for ideas and moves that improve your position or worsen your opponent's. Here you gave 47...b5!? and stopped. You did not try to play White and see if you could improve his position.
47...b5 48.Qc1 a4 49.Rb1 Ka6 50.Qb2 Qc6 51.Qb4 and White has threats... (a) Black's king is in a tight spot and (b) Black's rook will be tricky to defend if the White queen penetrates. A good tip: usually a player can survive one weakness, but rarely two weaknesses.
Thing can crumble very quickly for Black. For example: 51...Qb7? 52.Bd8! +-. 51...Kb6 52.Qxa4! +-. The only good move is 51...Bd7. Maybe your opponent would find it, maybe he wouldn't. 52.Qf8 Qc8 - This is again forced, else 53.Qg8 wins.
53.Bd8!! Qc6 54.Rh1 - It's over. Your opponent's position collapses.
I didn't see this finish from the initial position. I didn't have to. I kept an eye out for tactics and simply looked for improvement after improvement.
There are alternative for both sides on every move and it's hard to say in every line White can force the win. But he has very good chances. I would've played out this position.
Rybka 3 after about 7.5 minutes of analysis yielded:
Ultimately, both players traded down knights and rooks and the position opened up a touch on the queenside. Other than that, I don't see much gained by this recommendation. A draw wasn't necessarily a bad choice in this game, unless of course you were waiting for a win via opponent blunder.
try Qf5 it will threat the rook and the rook cannot escape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
likesforests wrote:
Okay, I had my spaghetti (yum!). Yes, that line is what I mentioned in my first post. Your focus on forced wins is why you gave up 1/2 point. If you don't see any, look for ideas and moves that improve your position or worsen your opponent's. Here you gave 47...b5!? and stopped. You did not try to play White and see if you could improve his position. 47...b5 48.Qc1 a4 49.Rb1 Ka6 50.Qb2 Qc6 51.Qb4 and White has threats... (a) Black's king is in a tight spot and (b) Black's rook will be tricky to defend if the White queen penetrates. A good tip: usually a player can survive one weakness, but rarely two weaknesses. Thing can crumble very quickly for Black. For example: 51...Qb7? 52.Bd8! +-. 51...Kb6 52.Qxa4! +-. The only good move is 51...Bd7. Maybe your opponent would find it, maybe he wouldn't. 52.Qf8 Qc8 - This is again forced, else 53.Qg8 wins. 53.Bd8!! Qc6 54.Rh1 - It's over. Your opponent's position collapses. I didn't see this finish from the initial position. I didn't have to. I kept an eye out for tactics and simply looked for improvement after improvement. There are alternative for both sides on every move and it's hard to say in every line White can force the win. But he has very good chances. I would've played out this position.
@ likesforests:
Thanks for your ideas. Your variation is based on the white queen being able to enter into blacks position via square b4. I don't understand why black would play 48...a4? weakening the b4 square. Tonydals additional 54.Bf6 and 55.Qg7 are beautiful ideas, but also based on the same variation.
In my opinion 48...a4 is a weak move. So what could be the way to continue If we replace 48...a4 by 48...Qc6. (black queen stays on this diagonal to answer eventualy a4 by white with ...b5 and threaten Qxa4).
.
GatoNegro> In my opinion 48...a4 is a weak move.
But you, me, and your opponent are not GMs. You can't assume that any of us will defend 100% accurately unless it's a simple theoretical endgame (and even then, it depends on the time control and how simple the theoretical endgame is).
likesforests wrote:
GatoNegro> In my opinion 48...a4 is a weak move. But you, me, and your opponent are not GMs. You can't assume that any of us will defend 100% accurately unless it's a simple theoretical endgame (and even then, it depends on the time control and how simple the theoretical endgame is).
likesforests, if we analyse a position we need to think of the best possible countermoves. Otherwise it's easy to end with the wrong conclusions. It's useless to give a variation with weak moves for black and then say "you see? it's won for white". But thanks for your efforts anyway.
GatoNegro> It's useless to give a variation with weak moves for black and then say "you see? it's won for white". But thanks for your efforts anyway.
What I said was, "Do I see a way to force a win? No. Do I see a way to play for a win? Yes..." I also said that I usually convert these sorts of positions against an equal or slightly better opponent, and that by giving up early you almost certainly gave up 1/2 point. The weak moves for Black were your own suggestions:
...Rg4
...b5
...b5 and planning to meet a4 with b4 & Qxa4
You did not try to come up with a saving move this time, so I will...
wiseachoo's Rybka came up with 42...Qf8, anticipating 43.Re1 among other things and planning to meet it with the exchange sac 43...Rxh6 44.Bxh6 Qxh6. As much as you have knocked computer analysis, that idea is harder to refute. And yet it's almost irrelevant since most amateurs would not have this idea from the initial position.
I've spent enough time analyzing your position.
It's alright lovesforests, let's forget about it.
I don't want to add too much fuel to the fire but I do have to agree with likesforest on this one. The keys to this position in my opinion is that white can trade a pair of rooks then a pair of knights and either force the b file open or go with an even deeper plan involving white protecting the h-pawn with his rook, then manuevering his bishop from g5 to g7 with Q on h4 (ie playing Qg3, h4 then Bf6, g7(effectively taking black's rook out of the game) and making use of the h4 d8 diagonal to get behind the black forces by making black's queen give up control of either the e7 or d8 square or!!! by playing the Q to f6 playing the rook to g1 and then waiting to get either Bh8 or f8 in and getting the rook to g8 which will decide the game. However, the point really is that all this will take a lot of time and there will be a lot of seemingly "useless" moves. However, the power of your position is that you have things that you can try (ie make use of the g-file, try to force open the b-file, use of the h4-d8 diagonal to get behind black, all the while black has nothing to do but try to defend against all these ideas). You just need to try to improve your position, and wait till it reaps its benefits (h6 pawn will queen if given enough time)
and just for an example of the power of locking the rook on its second rank with a bishop and pawn take a look at the game fischer taimanov 1970 position after 53.Bb7 http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044335
Use the other rook... I thought you wanted to leave that b rook there anyway to guard b5.