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What is this and how to counter it?

MichalMalkowski

Today, I have lost for the second time to a nasty trap. One time too many. The problem is i don't really see satisfactory defence to it. The line looks like some kind of reversed Steinitz varation scotch game. There are very few games in this line in this site's database, and the scoring for white is great!

Here is the game.

 

Does this line have a name? Even this would make the research much easier.

And what do you think about the line? It seems to me, that as much as i don't like it 2. Nf6 is the only go. My experience with Steinitz  variation scotch game tells me, that the only aproach after 2. ...d5. 3. Qh5 is to gambit one of the central pawns and try to punish white for taking it, which is actually  hard to do ( that's why i play 4.Qf4 against scotch!). I also don't really know how to do it in this position - pressing c2 is not possilbe here.

baddogno

1.e3 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.b3 Bb4 4.Bb2 b6 5.Be2 Bb7 6.Bf3 e4 7.Bg4 d5 8.Nb5 Nbd7 9.Nh3 a6 10.Nc3 Ne5 11.Be2 O-O 12.a3 Bd6 13.d4 exd3 14.Bxd3 Nxd3+ 15.cxd3 d4 16.e4 dxc3 17.Bxc3 Re8 18.f3 c5 19.Nf2 Be5 20.Bxe5 Rxe5 21.Ng4 Nxg4 22.fxg4 Qh4+ 23.g3 Qh3 24.Qe2 Rae8 25.O-O-O Bc8 26.Rdf1 Bxg4 27.Qf2 Be6 28.Qf4 Bxb3 29.Kb2 Qe6 30.Rf2 c4 31.d4 Rxe4 32.Qc7 Re2+ 33.Rxe2 Qxe2+ 0-1

baddogno

It's this according to the explorer, and yes Nf6 seems the way to go...

Van Geet Opening: Reversed Nimzowitsch Variation, 2.e3

1.Nc3 e5 2.e3

  • 70%
SirHoofalot

I've seen this before. Move .

DiscipleOfKeres

Nf6 instead of Nc6 looks like it can give you a lead in development for a pawn sacrifice. 3...Nf6 4. Qxe5 Be7 and black gets a semi open e-file and faster development. If you are concerned about maintaining the pawn center, I would consider 3... Qd6, which looks awkward but you still develop.

Laskersnephew

It's part of the unfairness of chess that White can play garbage like this and all that happens is that Black gets an equal game.  But after 4...Qd6 you are fine. I think it's a mistake to rely to heavily on the similarities between different openings.  Knowing how your opening resembles the Steinitz Scotch may be interesting, but it's important to recognize that there are big differences too. 

MichalMalkowski

Thank you for Your answers. As for 4... d6 it fails to protect the pawn after 5.Nf3 increasing the pressure on the centre. The funny think is that engine thinks that black is fine after giving up one of the pawns. Still, proving a compensation is probably tricky and involves way too much studing to be worth it. So probably i will stick to 2... Nf6.

wornaki

This kind of idiotic play is why I have started to block so many people online. They think they are so clever with their "creative" play. Ugh...

You may want to take a look at 4.Qd6 after 4.Bb5... Just a suggestion. Either way, it's very sad you have to waste part of precious memory space remembering how to counter this type of idiotic play.

ninjaswat
wornaki wrote:

This kind of idiotic play is why I have started to block so many people online. They think they are so clever with their "creative" play. Ugh...

You may want to take a look at 4.Qd6 after 4.Bb5... Just a suggestion. Either way, it's very sad you have to waste part of precious memory space remembering how to counter this type of idiotic play.

... you should know how to refute such dubious lines OTB if necessary and you don't want to "take up memory space"

pfren

Why 4...Qd6 "can't be good"? How can it be worse than Qh5?

And of course you may welll be tempted to offer the e5 pawn for some important tempos: 3...Nf6 4.Qxe5+ BNe7 and ...0-0 etc.

wornaki
pfren wrote:

Why 4...Qd6 "can't be good"? How can it be worse than Qh5?

And of course you may welll be tempted to offer the e5 pawn for some important tempos: 3...Nf6 4.Qxe5+ BNe7 and ...0-0 etc.

 4. Qd6 I suggested mainly to hold everything together.

mpaetz

     Van't Kruijs' opening--you can look it up right here in chess.com's opening library. 1.....e5 isn't best. 1.....Nf6 or 1.....d5 are better, leaving white little else to do but get into a conservative branch of the Queen's Gambit. Also, 1.....g6 has led to a very high % of wins for black. 

     The problem with "if your opponent is giving you the center, take it" is that white is not giving you the center, just inviting you to throw a couple of targets out there for him to attack.

MichalMalkowski
pfren napisał:

Why 4...Qd6 "can't be good"? How can it be worse than Qh5?

And of course you may welll be tempted to offer the e5 pawn for some important tempos: 3...Nf6 4.Qxe5+ BNe7 and ...0-0 etc.

Well... "can't be good" because it is pretty bad in Steinit's scotch game. Yes i know, surface similarities can be very misleading. Still 4. ...Q.d6 fails to protect the pawn, after 5. Nf3.After toying with analyser a bit i found out this:

 

On the other hand gambiting the pawn can be risky:

 

I think I would not take a risk of gambiting a pawn here. In Steinits scotch engine give white +1 in spite of being down a pawn. And still steinitz scotch remians dubious rather then refutated, a well prepared defender can escape punishment. So going for that plan here, where engine give the pawn grabber +0,4 seems not right - black don't get a sufficient compensation.

 

By the way, i don't know if the other site's databese is the same, but there too the line has very few games, but scores amazingly for white. So as i suprise weapon it definatelly works.

jamesstack

Analying with fritz 8 a bit the engine likes 3..Qd6. defending the pawn and at the right moment kick that queen with g6 and and just continue developing. Here is a sample line. You could also try Bg7 at the end there but Be7 is nice in that it makes the knight uncomfortable on g5.

 

king5minblitz119147

i guess it's rewarding to try and beat people who play like this with any color, but you could just play whatever it is you play against d4 setups or the queen's gambit. white's deviations don't seem to be as tricky as the ones he has here. e3 and c4 is likely going to transpose to a queen's gambit proper or reversed, e3 f4 is likely a reversed dutch, e3 b3 is really 1 b3 anyway and anything else that doesn't put a pawn on the central fourth rank is just meek.