W/L/D in Endgame?

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Crazychessplaya

Black is lost here no matter what. The white pawns on the king side will draw the black king there, giving the white king time to wipe out the entire queen flank. End  of story.

mtguy8787

Black isnt lost -- the game is a draw with ok play on first glance. I dont see how you can think black is totally lost no matter what simply by the observation you posted. Maybe you forgot that white has to stop Blacks pawn majority with his king as well?

Black can easily trade off the b pawns by playing a4, bxa4, bxa4. The black king can guard the c-passer as well as stay close enough to the 2 white pawns to force white to make a decision. If he tries to push the 2 white pawns, black will queen 1 move ahead, and its almost certainly a draw, a win for black if white makes a dumb blunder.

If not, the kings will dance back and forth and neither side can make progress.

Another possibility is depending on the position of the kings at the time (they might move back and forth for awhile) is that white will advance his g pawn, black will play hxg, followed by hxg, and black will push his c passer, which white has to go after. Blacks king will get the gpawn, and have enough time to get back over to the other side, and either get to the corner (if white plays sloppy), or force white onto the a file, where he wont be able to get off (thus blocking the queening of his pawn).

I didnt spend a huge amount of time, as king and pawn games are very precise. But its by no means clear by simply glancing and observing what you did. And as I played through a couple of move orders that would be typical at our level, black draws in a couple of ways.

If white can win, it is only through a very precise move order that would come after deep calculation + experience in king and pawn endgames. Im too lazy to bother, but quick calculation is enough to prove my point.

Shivsky

Black is not lost and can hold... but I think he has to work harder to find moves to hold...i.e. it looks easier for Black to screw this one up.

I think both sides may want to play a4 (White to defuse the black pawns rolling down and black to stop white from doing so )

Eniamar

Looks to me like a white win based solely on king position and the fact that his kingside pawns will be easier to advance than an isolated c-pawn.

mtguy8787
Eniamar wrote:

Looks to me like a white win based solely on king position and the fact that his kingside pawns will be easier to advance than an isolated c-pawn.

 


Your diagram is just one possible move order -- which just goes to show the point how in K&P games, one move difference can make all the difference. First off, black doesnt have to move his king first -- he can play a4 or b4 or c4 immediately, and simply start rolling his pawns immediately - his king can easily shoulder whites out. If white tries to race him here, he will lose if he moves his king -- and if its a straight pawn race, black will queen immediately after. Second, even in your sequence, hes not going to play 8... c4, but 8... Kd4, and black will queen right after white, which should probably be a draw.

Theres also the possibility of trading the a pawns off (one file closer).

If 1...b4  2. Kf5 c4  3. bc a4  4. Kg6 b3 -- black will win easily

 

If 1... b4   2. h4 c4  3. bc a4   etc -- white will still lose the race by 1 tempo. The only option would be for the white king to help out. This is a whole new line with in depth analysis needed.

 

The point is that its not a quick & simple answer at all.

Eniamar

In reply to a4 and Kd5 refer to the diagram. If b4 immediately white still uses his centralized King and h4-g5 ideas to win. I'll put my money on white. It's not "simple" but once you see the winning pattern, there's not a lot black can do but lose faster or slower. EDIT: the b4 lines.

 

mtguy8787

As I said, black can play a4, b4, or c4 immediately. Read my updated post. B4 immediately appears to be the best move for black, which should result in queening 1 move behind white, or if white plays a bit sloppy, 1 tempo -- possibly 3, ahead of white. If black queens 1 tempo behind white, it should be a draw. 

If black follows the lines I listed, he will queen 1 tempo behind white. Same if:

1.... b4 2. a4 c4 3. bxc a4 4. Kd3

cobra91

This is a very simple win for White, due to the fact that he can easily exchange off Black's lone kingside pawn, but Black has no way to exchange off both of White's pawns on the queenside. White simply keeps his king on the queenside and Black won't be able to force the advance of his passed pawn, while on the kingside White plays h4 and g5, creating a passer. The Black king will have to rush to the kingside to deal with this; if he plays h5 his king can only blockade White's pawns and must watch helplessly as White's king devours his queenside pawns and promotes the remaining White pawn. And if Black exchanges kingside pawns (hxg5, hxg5), he will chase down White's g-pawn only to reach a resignable K + P vs. K position (White should be left with a rook pawn, but it doesn't matter because the Black king is on the opposite side of the board with no hope of making it to the queening square), due once more to the fact that White has that extra "minority pawn".

Eniamar

^^ The above is correct.

I think b4 loses due to my given line. What is your plan after Kd3? you can't advance your pawns, white can hold his c-pawn, and if you go running to the kingside, the c-pawn runs and you're far too slow. Also, as shown above, 1 tempo behind white is not a draw except in certain cases, namely bishop pawns where black's king is in optimal position.

Lucidish_Lux

I don't see a problem with Eniamar's lines here. White's king is so far superior to black's that he can stop any black pawns that try to run, and then proceed to capture black's queenside if the black king isn't there. If the black king is there, then white's kingside pawns win. White's basic plan is to force black to commit to one side of the board, and then win on the other, and with his superior starting position, there's nothing black can do about it. 

mtguy8787

ah, nvm, youre right. Nvm with the last post -- I goofed when calculating it out.

White wins with correct play, although if I was playing this game, I certainly wouldnt resign, as a non-master player could easily make the wrong move.

My original point to the first poster was that its not clear at all at first glance.

Eniamar

I'll agree that it's not clear at first glance, but once white realizes the power of his centralized king and the dynamic potential of the g4-h4 pawns, there simply isn't a good thing for black to do with any advance. Finding Kf5 in the very first line is probably the hardest bit, but I don't think b4 would give me any trouble. The trick here is to calculate just far enough ahead to figure out whether queening matters for black.

Shivsky

Makes for a really good endgame study or a position to practice vs. a Computer.

PrawnEatsPrawn

I'm still trying to figure out why White gave the Knight up in the first place.