15-Minute vs. Blitz

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Warbringer33
RasputinTheMad wrote:

The debate isn't a blitz game vs a 15-minute game. The debate is 3 blitz games vs. one 15-minute game.

I'd say you gotta do a little of both. 

 

I'm wondering if this is the case. Obviously, at any level where we're hanging pieces - It's too fast. Perhaps though mixing in a little of both is the answer. The thing is that if you were preparing for a tournament in a week - how would you spend that time? I guess you're saying a little bit of both and this would go in line with some stuff I've seen (like it matters) Magnus say on the subject. He has recommended playing as much as you can at all different time controls...which, especially considering the age he came up in, I'm sure is what he did. That's Magnus, though.

Warbringer33
hhnngg1 wrote:
little_paw wrote:

I disagree both, neither blitz doesnt represent chess strength nor blitz is indicator of chess strength is true. But both of them true partially.

Blitz strength is related to chess strength (a little bit imprecise because other factors also affects) but this statement holds only after some level, an 1300 OTB player may have 1500 blitz other 1500 OTB may have 1100 blitz (i have seen many examples) But lets say players stronger than 1600 OTB have blitz rating in range of their OTB rating +-200 Elo. Of course this also doesnt hold at the other side of continum. Lots of IM and GMS have 2700-3000 blitz rating with 2300-2500 OTB. We can assume after 2100-2200 level blitz tends to be +100/+700 range instead of -200/+200 range. Of course exceptions are always possible.

You're mistaken, at least for the ratings here on chess.com, which I'm referring to.

 

Play a 1200 here in 5-min blitz and compare in strength to a 1200 long-rated player here. The 5-min blitz player will be substantially stronger. And it's not because they're just so much better at blitz. They're just significantly better players.

 

For here, the starting level for any new player is 1200. That 1200 rating is given to new slow-time control players, but also to new blitz players.

 

 

Since most new players are nowhere near good enough to even survive a 5-min blitz game, they'll play mostly slow time control games. So you're dealing with a much more competitive pool of players in the blitz section here, since all the real newbs aren't even participating.

 

 

For the GM/master ranges, yes, it's more skill-specific related, I'll grant you that, but that is pretty irrelevant to our class-level ratings, and specific to chess.com which is what I'm referring to.

 

Even overall though, blitz ratings def do reflect one's skill to a large extent.

 

You finally make a little bit of sense here. What you're saying about the average 1200 in blitz being stronger than the average 1200 in standard is 100% true. Obviously. That isn't the same way the whole way up the ladder though. Once we get to 1400+, we're not really dealing with any beginners at all anymore. I think a 1600 classical is stronger than a 1600 blitz. It depends on the time control, of course, but in classical chess? Yeah...obviously the guy who specializes in classical OTB games should win. You know from everything you've read this week that there's no denying how beginners, improving club players, and even 1800'ish players are advised against playing much blitz. But forget 1800'ish - players in the 1200-1600 range are of course going to get more progress and improvement out of classical games than blitz games. You have to agree with that, no?

What is a little suspect though is your claim that you have a standard rating on BOTH Lichess and ICC of 1800+. Really? On ICC your standard is 1800+? There's really no reason to exaggerate or lie. As for Lichess: You know that Lichess ratings start at 1500 instead of 1200 like everywhere else and you also know that ICC is a much, much more competitive player pool than Lichess. That's why I find it odd that your rating would be the same in both ICC and Lichess. They're different rating systems and the strength of ICC's player pool is #1 on the internet. Lichess might even be the softest.

Robert_New_Alekhine

Blitz is faster.

Warbringer33
Robert0905 wrote:

Blitz is faster.

 

And as a result, is a drastically different game than classical.

Warbringer33
 
And there's a prime example of my being hundreds of points (literally) better in games with an increment compared to games without an increment. This guy is rated almost 1400 in the 15+0 pool on ICC. A year ago, he was a 1590. He plays almost exclusively 15+0. Obviously the hanging a piece at the end was with 2-4 seconds left (look at the time stamping) but I am absolutely flying there for move after move attacking him and he wins on time. I went over it and I took 3 minutes on one move deciding whether to 16...d4 and that was the difference. With even one of those minutes back, I won. The point is that a) I am not a 940 and only some kind of an imbecile would even try to imply so at this point and b) A lot of my losses online, on every server, were just like this one. I'm going to start moving faster than these guys or checkmating them eventually just like I did to the 1100-1300 guys prior. It's really just a matter of time when I'm already winning against them by that much in fast games. c) ICC needs to add an increment to this pool.
 
This is why classical games matter and only classical games matter. Look what goes on in fast chess. It's by no means the test of who the better player is. Long time controls are.
klimski

A loss is a loss and your rating is your rating. Get over yourself.

Die_Schanze

You could have the same unsatisfying end in a otb tournament game without increment or delay, even in a 6 hr game. 

One should only play without increment in bullet, blitz or fast rapid chess (like this 15+0), where time is a great and wanted(!) factor. There you can test openings or simply have fun, while not waiting long for a opponent or playing 200 moves on increment in dead drawn positions instead of starting a new game.

Even with a small 5 seconds increment black has great chances to win the end posistion. At let's say 15+10 there will be far less examples like that last game above.

Warbringer33
klimski wrote:

A loss is a loss and your rating is your rating. Get over yourself.

 

Says the guy with some of the lowest ratings on the internet. Shave, shower, and worry about YOURself, my man. You can't even do tactics at an 1100 level which basically means you're retarded.

 

Warbringer33
Die_Schanze wrote:

You could have the same unsatisfying end in a otb tournament game without increment or delay, even in a 6 hr game. 

One should only play without increment in bullet, blitz or fast rapid chess (like this 15+0), where time is a great and wanted(!) factor. There you can test openings or simply have fun, while not waiting long for a opponent or playing 200 moves on increment in dead drawn positions instead of starting a new game.

Even with a small 5 seconds increment black has great chances to win the end posistion. At let's say 15+10 there will be far less examples like that last game above.

 

No, absolutely and this is why I run the 15-minute and 30-minute games. I want to prepare myself for those same conditions OTB - Time running down, no increment, and I'm up a pawn or a piece and need to put the game away asap. It's great practice.

I'm sure over time, as I get more experience, I'll run into this problem less and less in games like this. Just a few months ago I would always be down to a minute and my opponents would still have like 13 minutes on ICC. Now, we both use most of our clocks and I'm getting far more wins and draws. I can also still get in multiple games a day and work on my openings and endgames @ that kind of rapid time control, too so ...it's been good on multiple fronts.

SmyslovFan

You claim to be 100s of points better in games with increments vs games without increments. 

Your highest ICC 15-0 rating is 1312. 

Your highest standard rating (with increments) is 1309. 

Seems to me your problem may be more to do with math. 

Also, I think you worry far too much about the clock and not enough about the games. You tend to fall behind on the clock because you have gotten yourself into a bad position. Study your games and see how to get more active positions. 

little_paw
@Warbringer the last game you put is better quality then the games before at least for first 20 moves. But i didnt understand why you wanted draw with huge advantage even with 2 minutes on your clock. There was huge bishop on center (extra) which he cant remove unless sacrifices quality, You had space advantage queenside, better center, safer king. You cant hope anything more. A strong player (anything around 1800 would decide to play 22... f5 followed by Rd8, c5 etc in matter of seconds if not a second. After you stabilized your center and activity advantage and activated your last piece i am sure game would win it by itself. He can't try to mate you (g7 it protected and its real hard for him to get your back rank without trading something, He can't play c pawn because giving you third rank (sth like Rd3) would be fatal, moving a-pawn loses pawn and lets you advance queenside easier, you even dont have to capture a7, it is not going anywhere. He cant move g pawn, if he does your bishop's potential increase etc. Most he can do is getting his king g3 and praying.
 
Why i am saying this, because the things i say requires no real calculation, only looking at position and seeing its important elements so it doesnt need time. With seeing an eye of a coach (i have pupils, i train kids 1100-1300 elo range) that your time trouble might not be just a time trouble, and playing faster games might not be the best position. Try examining good players games (preferable old time games which are less complicated anthing between 1930-1970 would be perfect, or you can look at games of capablanca, lasker, nimzow... etc if you look before because in general chess strength is lower but these players are good) What you should do i, look (preferable with help of a stronger player) and try to understand their plan, dont calculate much only things necessary. If he can take a pawn free and he didnt you can try to understand but for regular moves only try to understand where he wants to put his pieces, where does he wants his pawns etc. You can examine 2-3 games/hour easily, harder part is selecting which games to look at. You can use some chess book (my system, chernev's books etc many good sources)
As a supplemantary you may try to win positions against strong chess engine where master's resigned, positions will be winnable against any opposition but most of them will still be hard, you won't be able to most but trying it teaches as well.
klimski

Haha you, 'Warlord' are a loquacious blowhard. Did the truth sting a bit? Stop lying to yourself, you are almost as lowly ranked as myself (in fact, your blitz rating is lower than mine, much as I don't care) and you've been at it much longer. So who's the retard now?

adumbrate

This is simple. I had no chance of being able to play blitz when I was lower rated, all I played was Standard, and that is my 100 games that I have on standard on my profile. Then I gradually improved, and things was easier to understand, and less time was needed for each move. Therefore I started playing 5|2 , 10|0,  5|0, and improved even more, then I started playing bullet and 3|0. You just have to let the time you need go, and decide for yourself what time control is right for you. This is the simple truth, and what most people miss.

 

This is a very frequent game I recently played in 3|0, and with decent quality, and below I will show a poor quality 30|0 game I played a long time ago.

 



Warbringer33
SmyslovFan wrote:

You claim to be 100s of points better in games with increments vs games without increments. 

Your highest ICC 15-0 rating is 1312. 

Your highest standard rating (with increments) is 1309. 

Seems to me your problem may be more to do with math. 

Also, I think you worry far too much about the clock and not enough about the games. You tend to fall behind on the clock because you have gotten yourself into a bad position. Study your games and see how to get more active positions. 

 

You really had nothing else to do but come in this thread and try to start trouble?

Funny how you just ignored my ~1500 rating in the 25+10 pool on ICC. You're an idiot. Many, many of my standard games on ICC are exactly what I said - without increment. So why are you pointing to a 1312 standard where I already told you most of those games had no increment? Because you're a loser and you have nothing else to do but troll on the internet.

You are a total, total moron. The advice you give is basically "study and improve". Thanks, buddy. I never would have been able to figure that out without you.

I still like how a few of you just ignore that I'm in my first year of playing.

I like how you describe yourself as a "chess coach with 25 years of experience". Right, you're an unemployed loser who spent his entire life playing a children's game and you're still only 2000. You can't even succeed at this.

Remember, you're the complete and utter idiot that everyone makes fun of on this site now because you agreed with that Greg Shahade article. This thread that you're posting in is about 15 minute vs Blitz games. Not critiquing me. Maybe you should spend less time doing absolutely nothing with your life and get a job already you bum.

Warbringer33
klimski wrote:

Haha you, 'Warlord' are a loquacious blowhard. Did the truth sting a bit? Stop lying to yourself, you are almost as lowly ranked as myself (in fact, your blitz rating is lower than mine, much as I don't care) and you've been at it much longer. So who's the retard now?

 

...smh. Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable.

Pulpofeira

"I could be better than I am. You should be better than you are". Strange logic.

SmyslovFan

Your derision notwithstanding, I've seen some of your 25+10 games. It's not the increment that's keeping your rating low, it's the quality of the moves you are making. 

Let me try to explain:



u0110001101101000

warbringer, some of your moves eat up a lot of your clock when not much is going on.

I know the feeling. You need to check if pieces are hanging, if they can check you, if your intended move is safe, etc.

But with some blitz practice, you may be able to do this sort of check very quickly. Sometimes in just 2 to 3 seconds. Whether with blitz or otherwise, if you added that ability to your play it would be worth a good number of rating points I think.

Warbringer33
 
Yet again - Just destroying the 1327 and his entire game is just to run away with the king until my time expires. I think 36 moves in 15 minutes is pretty fast. As I said, obviously at some point I'm going to move fast enough to win even ridiculous games like this one.
 
It does once again though beg the question why ANYONE plays chess ANYWHERE without an increment or large delay. It turns the game into "who can move faster without being checkmated" rather than ...chess.
Warbringer33
0110001101101000 wrote:

warbringer, some of your moves eat up a lot of your clock when not much is going on.

I know the feeling. You need to check if pieces are hanging, if they can check you, if your intended move is safe, etc.

But with some blitz practice, you may be able to do this sort of check very quickly. Sometimes in just 2 to 3 seconds. Whether with blitz or otherwise, if you added that ability to your play it would be worth a good number of rating points I think.

 

Again, the question is the following: Does playing more long chess make you faster or does playing more blitz chess make you faster? Conventional wisdom has always been that you get better at faster time controls by playing longer time controls.

Still, I played a good 8 or 9 games of 3/2 blitz OTB with a friend tonight and although I did flag in this last game, I played much faster. Each day I do seem to improve on that a bit and I'm starting to recognize tactical patterns intuitively more often and less after thorough calculation. Either way, it's certainly fun working on this and trying to improve.

Smyslov - Thanks for the pm. I'll be getting back to you soon.