2100s FEAR this opening…

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Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry


Hey all! You guessed it, it’s another smashing game in my beloved Ponziani. I’ve annotated this one a tad to explain some fun moments, but it is wild quite how quickly a strong amateur player can be plainly worse in this opening. I included a tactical possibility if black exchanges queens on my terms, but the lack of development possibility for black in this game was miserable. Take a look and tell me your thoughts!

(I needed this win after some shocking fumbles this morning…)

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry

*bid, sorry autocorrect in the game notes 🤦‍♂️

Avatar of Fr3nchToastCrunch

Hmmmmmm

I've done the Ponziani a few times before. I kinda stopped because I didn't know the ideas very much and sometimes had opening bombs as a result, but this is interesting to me. In fact, I might just bring it out again to see what happens if I get to know it a little better than I do now. Maybe if I get good enough at it, I could officially have an opening I'm dedicated to for both sides 👀

Avatar of ThoughtfulBro
Games like this make me think that maybe I ought to play the Ponziani. Well done!
Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
Fr3nchToastCrunch wrote:

Hmmmmmm

I've done the Ponziani a few times before. I kinda stopped because I didn't know the ideas very much and sometimes had opening bombs as a result, but this is interesting to me. In fact, I might just bring it out again to see what happens if I get to know it a little better than I do now. Maybe if I get good enough at it, I could officially have an opening I'm dedicated to for both sides 👀

If you’ve got chessly, Levy’s course is quietly excellent on the Ponz. Other than his recommendation against (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Ne4) which I disagree with, he highlights a tonne of great lines. There are traps, but even the best lines against the Ponz are very very playable as white. 
My win rates are as follows:

Avatar of medelpad
3. Nf6, d4, exd4, e5, nd5 just looks pretty miserable for white
Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
medelpad wrote:
3. Nf6, d4, exd4, e5, nd5 just looks pretty miserable for white

Not at all, there are tonnes of very promising lines.

These are two of the most common continuations after that line, and there’s plenty else excellent, too. 

And, for further reference, here’s my win rate after Nd5:

Avatar of nonotrocosto2011

I'm happy to play the Sicilian as black rather than e5 now... This opening is pretty solid. I still have some struggle after 3. d5 but I am learning it

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
nonotrocosto2011 wrote:

I'm happy to play the Sicilian as black rather than e5 now... This opening is pretty solid. I still have some struggle after 3. d5 but I am learning it

Haha I imagine the move c3 still makes you sweat: no-one likes the alapin!

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
ThoughtfulBro wrote:
Games like this make me think that maybe I ought to play the Ponziani. Well done!

Nahhhh don’t make it too popular or people will prep it and I’ll stop winning 😂😂

Avatar of Fr3nchToastCrunch

So, I played the Ponziani again... nervous

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
Fr3nchToastCrunch wrote:

So, I played the Ponziani again...

So against d5, you don’t take. Try this instead:

Explore these and other options, you can see from my posts above that my success rates in this variation is excellent, too!

Avatar of dearprince

i thought italian game main line was enough for me but this is something i'm really gonna like to play

i just love the c-pawn

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
dearprince wrote:

i thought italian game main line was enough for me but this is something i'm really gonna like to play

i just love the c-pawn

You get the added value of surprising your opponent who’s expecting Italian or Spanish. No-one spends any serious time studying the ponziani as black, even at my level.

Avatar of TheFloridianSpeedster

It's arguably as annoying as the vienna, maybe even more because it's not as mainstream imo. Nice win!

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
TheFloridianSpeedster wrote:

It's arguably as annoying as the vienna, maybe even more because it's not as mainstream imo. Nice win!

Haha yeah - I’d say probably more annoying for a couple of reasons:

1) it’s rarer, as you say

2) after nf3 they’re expecting Italian or Spanish, and so they’re probably frustrated you play something else

3) black’s “best” continuations are (in my opinion) less obvious and the positions have more life in them for white than the Vienna’s “optimal response”

Avatar of pfren
DoYouLikeCurry wrote:
medelpad wrote:
3. Nf6, d4, exd4, e5, nd5 just looks pretty miserable for white

Not at all, there are tonnes of very promising lines.

These are two of the most common continuations after that line, and there’s plenty else excellent, too.

And, for further reference, here’s my win rate after Nd5:

All openings are promising if the other side plays poor chess.

7...dxc3 isn't something that any half-serious player would play. Either 7...d5 or 7...d6 are the moves which fully comply to the opening principles.

Avatar of fraserhm

Seems very solid

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
pfren wrote:
DoYouLikeCurry wrote:
medelpad wrote:
3. Nf6, d4, exd4, e5, nd5 just looks pretty miserable for white

Not at all, there are tonnes of very promising lines.

These are two of the most common continuations after that line, and there’s plenty else excellent, too.

And, for further reference, here’s my win rate after Nd5:

All openings are promising if the other side plays poor chess.

7...dxc3 isn't something that any half-serious player would play. Either 7...d5 or 7...d6 are the moves which fully comply to the opening principles.

While you are, of course, correct that d6 and d5 are superior options, I suppose it depends significantly on what we call “half serious players”. For the vast vast majority of this platform, even my very amateur rating is beyond their aspirations: how many players see 2000 rapid as the ultimate attainment in chess? 
At master level, the ponziani isn’t played with good reason; there are better ways to eke out an advantage over your opponents. But at club level, it’s a wonderful weapon that has been probably my most successful opening above 2000. 
To illustrate the point - I switched the lichess database to 2200+, and dxc3 is still played between one and two games every ten… (when viewing the entire lichess database, it’s played nearly 40% of the time, hence it’s the line I chose to demonstrate)

Avatar of DoYouLikeCurry
DoYouLikeCurry wrote:
pfren wrote:
DoYouLikeCurry wrote:
medelpad wrote:
3. Nf6, d4, exd4, e5, nd5 just looks pretty miserable for white

Not at all, there are tonnes of very promising lines.

These are two of the most common continuations after that line, and there’s plenty else excellent, too.

And, for further reference, here’s my win rate after Nd5:

All openings are promising if the other side plays poor chess.

7...dxc3 isn't something that any half-serious player would play. Either 7...d5 or 7...d6 are the moves which fully comply to the opening principles.

While you are, of course, correct that d6 and d5 are superior options, I suppose it depends significantly on what we call “half serious players”. For the vast vast majority of this platform, even my very amateur rating is beyond their aspirations: how many players see 2000 rapid as the ultimate attainment in chess? 
At master level, the ponziani isn’t played with good reason; there are better ways to eke out an advantage over your opponents. But at club level, it’s a wonderful weapon that has been probably my most successful opening above 2000. 
To illustrate the point - I switched the lichess database to 2200+, and dxc3 is still played between one and two games every ten… (when viewing the entire lichess database, it’s played nearly 40% of the time, hence it’s the line I chose to demonstrate)

And! That said, against d6 there are still plenty of excellent fun lines...

I like to castle, after which there are lots of potentially fatal errors black can make, including opening up his king in a catastrophic way.

One for example (obviously recapturing with the knight here is better, and this leads to a fascinating game):

And there's also this kind-of strange option that promises an interesting game:

Obviously there are plenty of options for black along the way, be7 instead of dxe5 makes sense and play continues, but the Ponziani provides a lot of opportunities for black to err in every line. I think perhaps some people are too quick to dismiss it...