50 move rule question

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Martin_Stahl
MARattigan wrote:

@Martin_Stahl. Not at all. My bad wording.

I don't believe anything in the competition rules section applies to a game played under the rules in the basic rules section.

3.10.2 is merely a definition. According to 4.7 it can't be played. The definition is used in the (Competition Rules) section (as are all the articles in the Basic Rules section). The definition of "legal move" is used in the Basic Rules section (art 4.7) so it would seem logical to place the definition of "illegal move" in the same place.

Some of the articles 4.1-4.7 are capable of being violated e.g. "Each move must be played with one hand only", others are not, e.g. "the pawn does not have to be placed on the square of arrival" (when promoting). If a player at the start of the game releases his e2 pawn on d3 (having, of course first touched it with the intention of moving it) he has violated none of the articles in 4.1-4.7. The status is simply he is part way through his move.

Under Competition Rules, if he completes a move (e.g. by pressing his clock before he has made a move - e.g. after the e2-d3 example I gave previously) then the completed move is illegal. (Art 7.5.1 An illegal move is completed once the player has pressed his clock. If during a game it is found that an illegal move has been completed ...)

Article 7 "Irregularities", occurring in the Competition Rules section doesn't apply under Basic Rules, nor could it because most of the articles refer to clocks and arbiters that are generally irrelevant to the basic rules game.

 

All other draws are mentioned in article 5 and the draws under discussion used to be listed there as well. So the debate about location can be called out there as well.

 

Yet, illegal moves will still be played in casual games and only 7.5.1 and 7.5.2 proscribe how to handle the situation. Yes, it logically follows from the touched piece rules, but logically following from other rules doesn't prevent them from being used.

 

Anyway, if I'm playing a game and such a position happens, I'm going to tell my opponent the rule, regardless of if it isn't listed as a basic rule, because it is the rule.

Martin_Stahl
DerekDHarvey wrote:

@Martin_Stahl Not so, I provided a game to prove it. Other draws are automatic. Chess: DerekDHarvey vs predadan79 - 326504024 - Chess.com

 

I edited my post well before this reply to state that apparently Daily is different. Live absolutely automatically claims and I thought Daily had changed to auto-claim at one point. I'll have to find proof of that, but if I'm remembering correctly, it has subsequently changed.

Martin_Stahl
Martin_Stahl wrote:
DerekDHarvey wrote:

@Martin_Stahl Not so, I provided a game to prove it. Other draws are automatic. Chess: DerekDHarvey vs predadan79 - 326504024 - Chess.com

 

I edited my post well before this reply to state that apparently Daily is different. Live absolutely automatically claims and I thought Daily had changed to auto-claim at one point. I'll have to find proof of that, but if I'm remembering correctly, it has subsequently changed.

 

Though, the site needs to change the help article.

https://support.chess.com/article/352-how-do-draws-work

llama47
MARattigan wrote:
llama47 wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

But there you're talking about competition rules. The 50 move rule is retained by FIDE for competition rules. Under FIDE basic rules there is no arbiter.

 

The basic rules mention arbiters as well, so that probably isn't  a defining factor. The likely reason to move the rules under the competition heading is that only competition games are going to have notation, for the most part, and both rules require accurate notation (50 moves less so but still needs an accurate tracking of the last capture or pawn move)

You only need an arbiter under FIDE basic rules if one or both players are unable to move the pieces and only then to approve somebody to move the pieces for them.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Art 4.9 If a player is unable to move the pieces, an assistant, who shall be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to perform this operation.

That's the only reference to an arbiter you'll find anywhere in FIDE's basic rules section.

In other words, you still have no idea what you're talking about.

Topics like these are full of idiots. It's really discouraging.

They don't understand things, even after it's been explained to them... it's a farce. This topic isn't about the rules of chess as implemented by FIDE or chess.com, it's about newbies expressing dismay.

Time and curiosity heals ignorance, not topics like these, which are more emotional support than anything.

MARattigan
 Martin_Stahl wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

@Martin_Stahl. Not at all. My bad wording.

I don't believe anything in the competition rules section applies to a game played under the rules in the basic rules section.

3.10.2 is merely a definition. According to 4.7 it can't be played. The definition is used in the (Competition Rules) section (as are all the articles in the Basic Rules section). The definition of "legal move" is used in the Basic Rules section (art 4.7) so it would seem logical to place the definition of "illegal move" in the same place.

Some of the articles 4.1-4.7 are capable of being violated e.g. "Each move must be played with one hand only", others are not, e.g. "the pawn does not have to be placed on the square of arrival" (when promoting). If a player at the start of the game releases his e2 pawn on d3 (having, of course first touched it with the intention of moving it) he has violated none of the articles in 4.1-4.7. The status is simply he is part way through his move.

Under Competition Rules, if he completes a move (e.g. by pressing his clock before he has made a move - e.g. after the e2-d3 example I gave previously) then the completed move is illegal. (Art 7.5.1 An illegal move is completed once the player has pressed his clock. If during a game it is found that an illegal move has been completed ...)

Article 7 "Irregularities", occurring in the Competition Rules section doesn't apply under Basic Rules, nor could it because most of the articles refer to clocks and arbiters that are generally irrelevant to the basic rules game.

 

All other draws are mentioned in article 5 and the draws under discussion used to be listed there as well. So the debate about location can be called out there as well.

I really don't understand your logic here. To me it seems obvious that the intention in the FIDE laws is that the rules covering the basic game are meant to be those in the Basic Rules section. So clocks, arbiters, points and all the rest that occur in the Competition Rules section is irrelevant to the basic game.

I'm not disputing that the 50 move and triple repetition rules used to be part of the basic game. I've seen a note of the proposed changes for the 2017 version where those rules appeared in the 'old' column and were shown as deleted in the 'new' column, so I believe that FIDE's excision of the rules in the basic game was deliberate. 

Yet, illegal moves will still be played in casual games and only 7.5.1 and 7.5.2 proscribe how to handle the situation. Yes, it logically follows from the touched piece rules, but logically following from other rules doesn't prevent them from being used.

On my reading of the laws illegal moves are not played in casual games. Art 4.7 is meant to ensure that illegal moves can't be made.

If White moves a pawn from e2 to d3 and releases it and before he releases the pawn on a square as a legal move Black moves a pawn from e7 to e5, Black has transgressed art 1.2,

"The player with the light-coloured pieces (White) makes the first move, then the players move alternately, with the player with the dark-coloured pieces (Black) making the next move".

Neither player has made an illegal move (White's move is not made), but Black has transgressed the rules.

In the basic game it's left up to the players to agree what action to take in that case (as e.g. time managemant is also left to the players discretion). Article 7 doesn't apply. (Most of article 7 couldn't apply.)

Illegal moves are also not made under competition rules. (Again by art 4.7.) They're completed by pressing the clock. If the clock is pressed before a move has been made (necessarily a legal move by art 4.7) an illegal move is deemed to have been completed (whether or not a piece has actually moved).

Anyway, if I'm playing a game and such a position happens, I'm going to tell my opponent the rule, regardless of if it isn't listed as a basic rule, because it is the rule.

In America you no doubt use the USCF version of the basic game, in which case you're right it is the rule. 

In the rest of the world The FIDE laws are normally regarded as the rules.

 

MARattigan
llama47 wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
llama47 wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

But there you're talking about competition rules. The 50 move rule is retained by FIDE for competition rules. Under FIDE basic rules there is no arbiter.

 

The basic rules mention arbiters as well, so that probably isn't  a defining factor. The likely reason to move the rules under the competition heading is that only competition games are going to have notation, for the most part, and both rules require accurate notation (50 moves less so but still needs an accurate tracking of the last capture or pawn move)

You only need an arbiter under FIDE basic rules if one or both players are unable to move the pieces and only then to approve somebody to move the pieces for them.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Art 4.9 If a player is unable to move the pieces, an assistant, who shall be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to perform this operation.

That's the only reference to an arbiter you'll find anywhere in FIDE's basic rules section.

In other words, you still have no idea what you're talking about.

Topics like these are full of idiots. It's really discouraging.

They don't understand things, even after it's been explained to them... it's a farce. This topic isn't about the rules of chess as implemented by FIDE or chess.com, it's about newbies expressing dismay.

Time and curiosity heals ignorance, not topics like these, which are more emotional support than anything.

If you say so.

Martin_Stahl
MARattigan wrote:
 Martin_Stahl wrot

 

All other draws are mentioned in article 5 and the draws under discussion used to be listed there as well. So the debate about location can be called out there as well.

I really don't understand your logic here. To me it seems obvious that the intention in the FIDE laws is that the rules covering the basic game are meant to be those in the Basic Rules section. So clocks, arbiters, points and all the rest that occur in the Competition Rules section is irrelevant to the basic game.

I'm not disputing that the 50 move and triple repetition rules used to be part of the basic game. I've seen a note of the proposed changes for the 2017 version where those rules appeared in the 'old' column and were shown as deleted in the 'new' column, so I believe that FIDE's excision of the rules in the basic game was deliberate. 

Yet, illegal moves will still be played in casual games and only 7.5.1 and 7.5.2 proscribe how to handle the situation. Yes, it logically follows from the touched piece rules, but logically following from other rules doesn't prevent them from being used.

On my reading of the laws illegal moves are not played in casual games. Art 4.7 is meant to ensure that illegal moves can't be made.

If White moves a pawn from e2 to d3 and releases it and before he releases the pawn on a square as a legal move Black moves a pawn from e7 to e5, Black has transgressed art 1.2,

"The player with the light-coloured pieces (White) makes the first move, then the players move alternately, with the player with the dark-coloured pieces (Black) making the next move".

Neither player has made an illegal move (White's move is not made), but Black has transgressed the rules.

In the basic game it's left up to the players to agree what action to take in that case (as e.g. time managemant is also left to the players discretion). Article 7 doesn't apply. (Most of article 7 couldn't apply.)

Illegal moves are also not made under competition rules. (Again by art 4.7.) They're completed by pressing the clock. If the clock is pressed before a move has been made (necessarily a legal move by art 4.7) an illegal move is deemed to have been completed (whether or not a piece has actually moved).

Anyway, if I'm playing a game and such a position happens, I'm going to tell my opponent the rule, regardless of if it isn't listed as a basic rule, because it is the rule.

In America you no doubt use the USCF version of the basic game, in which case you're right it is the rule. 

In the rest of the world The FIDE laws are normally regarded as the rules.

 

 

Illegal moves are played in all types of games. Are you trying to say that people suddenly don't play them in casual games because the rules tells you have to make legal moves?

 

 

Without a clock, illegal moves happen as soon as a piece is released on a square, where either the location, the actual move, or timing was illegal. I don't know why you are parsing the intent of what an illegal move is, because that isn't even a bit contentious. The only discussion point really is what to do with illegal moves, which is only mentioned in the competition rules.

 

The simple fact is they happen and unless you're saying they stand, I'm not sure what you're getting at. But I guess you can just use whatever you want in casual games and I'll use the rules that make sense, which include all the draw rules and how to handle illegal moves

 

But it doesn't matter where I play. Even outside the US I'm going to claim triple repetition draws and 50 move, even in casual games, and if the opponent does believe it, then I'll probably not play that person again.