A perfect game of chess is always a draw. Discuss.

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Avatar of Optimissed
tygxc wrote:

@112

"It seems we just have different standards of "proof"."
++ Here is proof by reductio ad absurdum.

Fact: 97 games all draws in the ICCF World Championship Finals,
by ICCF (grand)masters with engines.
10 exceeded the 50 days / 10 move time limit in otherwise drawn positions.

Hypothesis: chess is not a draw.
Then all 97 games must contain an odd number of errors (?).
An error (?) is a move that changes the game state from draw to loss or from won to drawn,
and a blunder (??) changes the game state from won to lost and counts as a double error.
So all 97 games would contain 1, 3, 5 ... errors and none would contain 0, 2, 4... errors.
It is absurd that some games would contain 1 or 3 errors and none would contain 2.
It is absurd that some games would contain 1 error and none would contain 0 or 2.
It is absurd that the ICCF (grand)masters and their engines would conspire to always make an odd number of errors and never ever an even number of errors.
The hypothesis was false.
Thus chess is a draw.

Q.E.D.

Hypothesis: chess is a draw and the 97 games are not perfect.
Thus all 97 games contain an even number of errors: 0, 2, 4...
It is absurd that games would contain 0, 2, 4 errors and none would contain 1 error.
It is absurd that the ICCF (grand)masters and their engines would conspire to always make an even number of errors and never ever an odd number of errors and never make 1 error.
Thus all 97 games must contain 0 errors.
The hypothesis was false.
Thus all 97 games are perfect games.

Q.E.D.

I didn't think that kind of proof is possible since it seems to rely on the assumption that chess is a draw, the assumption that therefore it takes an error create a win for one side or the other and also the seemingly incorrect proposal that a won game contains an odd number of errors. I don't believe there's any possible way to show that to be correct. Therefore I think it's incorrect. I would much rather rely on my inductive reasoning example. Much stronger.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed wrote:

The inferential reasoning is that the game of chess starts off with a slight initiative to white, which some people consider to be worth about a fifth of a pawn to a third of a pawn, depending on the opening. It is considered that this slight initiative gradually lessens if both sides continue to play good moves, until at a particular stage in a game, the initiative has dwindled to nothing. It would take a inexplicable reversal of that trend to make a game won by one side or the other. There's no reason that there should be such a reversal, unless one side or the other blunders. Therefore it's drawn with best play and that is an inferential proof. There's no deductive proof possible. Consequently, that which I've just given is the best we have to go from.

I don't know if it's available in any books or theoretical papers anywhere, because I just put it together in my head: but it's correct.

This, I think, is the only possible theoretically correct proof that chess is drawn with best play.

Avatar of tygxc

@121

"rely on the assumption that chess is a draw"
++ No.
Hypothesis: chess is not a draw.
The hypothesis is inconsistent with the observed facts 97 draws in 97 ICCF WC Finals games and thus the hypothesis is false and thus chess is a draw.

Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@119

"but this fact will nowhere be used, it's just thrown in for padding"
++ Of course the time per move and the engine speed are relevant.

It's not relevant to your argument because nowhere do you use it.

You cannot draw valid conclusions from letting an engine blitz against itself.

I can draw the valid conclusion that your argument doesn't hold water. It contradicts the conclusion when applied to that case.

If you are serious about your experiment, then take your 2048 second/move game,
then go forward until the error in respect to the 7-men endgame table base,
and for that move increase the time/move to 5 days. Is the error still there? Yes/no?

No point. Your argument nowhere takes the time per move into account. As I said you just throw it in for padding. If I'd made them all 1s per move it would still prove your argument invalid.

"the initial position under RCCF rules, which differ from FIDE rules"
++ Nobody but you is interested in RCCF rules, but in FIDE rules and/or ICCF rules.

Your argument nowhere takes into account the rules used in the sample. As I said I could have used a game of draughts to discredit it. 

"Indeed your conclusion is that chess is a draw, not that ICCF chess is a draw."
++ What is discussed here is 'A perfect game of chess is always a draw.'

Which is ambiguous, because there are multiple versions of chess with different rules and possibly different theoretical outcomes. No statistical argument purporting to show the result for all from a sample taken from only one will be valid. Your particular argument is invalid even for the same version as I just demonstrated.

++ A game of chess starts from the initial position.

Which fact again is nowhere used in your "proof". So if it were valid it would be valid for any starting position.

And it's not.

Avatar of tygxc

@124

"nowhere do you use it." ++ Of course I use it. If I were to take the Blitz World Championship or the Rapid World Championship, then I would not have 100% draws to start with.

"Your argument nowhere takes the time per move into account."
++ It does, as only long time per move and strong masters arrive at 100% draws.

"If I'd made them all 1s per move it would still prove your argument invalid."
++ No. You take a won position and your engine fails to win at its set time/move.
I take the drawn initial position and the ICCF (grand)masters with their engines now arrive at reaching 100% draws. Your setup fails to reach the game-theoretical value.
ICCF WC Finals now succeed in reaching the game-theoretical value.
In previous years they came closer and closer, but did not yet reach it.

Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@124

"nowhere do you use it." ++ Of course I use it. If I were to take the Blitz World Championship or the Rapid World Championship, then I would not have 100% draws to start with.

You use it implicitly in your choice of sample, but nowhere in your argument from that sample. Ir's the argument that is invalid.

"Your argument nowhere takes the time per move into account."
++ It does, as only long time per move and strong masters arrive at 100% draws.

A random legal move generator will generally produce 100% draws. 

"If I'd made them all 1s per move it would still prove your argument invalid."
++ No. You take a won position and your engine fails to win at its set time/move.
I take the drawn initial position and the ICCF (grand)masters with their engines now arrive at reaching 100% draws. Your setup fails to reach the game-theoretical value.

They both arrive at 100% draws (some agreed draws). Only your big red telephone tells you yours reach the game-theoretic value. A proof that the starting position is a draw that starts by assuming the starting position is a draw could be regarded as circular.

But I will post a set of SF v SF games that do reach the game-theoretic value of draw from a Syzygy verifiable drawn position and also contain blunders.

ICCF WC Finals now succeed in reaching the game-theoretical value.
In previous years they came closer and closer, but did not yet reach it.

According to your big red telephone. The games I'll post will verifiably reach the game theoretic value.

Avatar of medelpad
Wait so people don’t think chess is a draw?
Avatar of tygxc

@127

Most people think chess is a draw, a few do not.

Avatar of mountainf
I disagree. To me a perfect game of chess is when both strong players learn something new together. One sees something nobody has ever seen before and they capitalize on it to win. What makes it perfect is that a lot is already known, so to see something new is breath taking.
Avatar of tygxc

@126

"A random legal move generator will generally produce 100% draws."
++ I do not know that. It is disrespectful to compare 17 ICCF (grand)masters with engines at 5 days/move in the ICCF World Championship Finals to a random move generator.

"They both arrive at 100% draws"
++ The ICCF (grand)masters did not arrive at 100% draws in previous years.
They now reached 100% (except if the ongoing games would produce a decisive game).

"some agreed draws"
++ Yes, they agree on a draw when neither side has no hope of winning. You cannot expect them to play on for months until a 7-men endgame table base draw or a 3-fold repetition.

"A proof that the starting position is a draw that starts by assuming the starting position is a draw could be regarded as circular."
++ No, I start with the hypothesis that chess is not a draw.
Then I demonstrate this hypothesis contradicts the observed facts and thus the hypothesis is false and the contrary of the hypothesis is true.

"I will post a set of SF v SF games that do reach the game-theoretic value of draw from a Syzygy verifiable drawn position and also contain blunders."
++ But at what time per move? Some previous year ICCF WC Finals at 5 days/move but with less powerful engines and less knowledgeable ICCF (grand)masters ended decisively.
There probably were games with two errors that undid each other.

"In previous years they came closer and closer, but did not yet reach it."
++ That is a fact: the number of decisive games became smaller and smaller and is now zero.

"The games I'll post will verifiably reach the game theoretic value."
++ If you reach a draw and you have an even number of mistakes that cancel out, then the same procedure will also generate games with 1, 3... errors, i.e. games that do not reach the game theoretic value.
On previous years' ICCF WC Finals I used a Poisson distribution to estimate the number of errors from the observed results. Now I no longer need that: they have reached 100% draws.

Avatar of tygxc

@129

"they capitalize on it to win"
++ You can only capitalize on an opponent's mistake to win.

Avatar of Optimissed
tygxc wrote:

@121

"rely on the assumption that chess is a draw"
++ No.
Hypothesis: chess is not a draw.
The hypothesis is inconsistent with the observed facts 97 draws in 97 ICCF WC Finals games and thus the hypothesis is false and thus chess is a draw.

I'm just saying that I noticed some faults in your argument.

Avatar of Optimissed
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@124

"nowhere do you use it." ++ Of course I use it. If I were to take the Blitz World Championship or the Rapid World Championship, then I would not have 100% draws to start with.

You use it implicitly in your choice of sample, but nowhere in your argument from that sample. Ir's the argument that is invalid.

"Your argument nowhere takes the time per move into account."
++ It does, as only long time per move and strong masters arrive at 100% draws.

A random legal move generator will generally produce 100% draws. 

This is so obviously not true that I would say it invalidates absolutely every argument you've ever made and which no-one else understood.

Avatar of Optimissed
medelpad wrote:
Wait so people don’t think chess is a draw?

Some, yes. There are no good arguments to support them so they can be ignored.

Avatar of err0r909

chess mate or play pacman. I'll add, on a certain level you'll encounter stalemates... lessons and puzzles will help u out ; )

Avatar of tygxc

@132

"I noticed some faults in your argument."
++ I will try again.
Hypothesis: Chess is not a draw.
Look at the ongoing ICCF World Championship Finals, the strongest chess on the planet, 5 days/move average, engines allowed, 17 ICCF (grand)masters that qualified.
All 95 games are draws (or 10 by 1 player exceeded time limit in drawn positions).
If chess is not a draw and if all 95 games end in draws, then all 95 games must contain an odd number of errors.
It is absurd, that games would contain 1, 3, 5... errors and none would contain 0 or 2 errors.
Thus the hypothesis was wrong.
Thus Chess is a draw.

Avatar of Optimissed

The present combatants can't possibly get anywhere. They keep talking about perfect moves, which is ambiguous. The're using the nomenclature which some games theorists who didn't know what they were doing came up with.

It would be simpler and less confusing to others and to themselves (since it's obvious that both sides don't really know what they're talking about) to use GOOD MOVES as any move which doesn't change the game assessment.

Obviously in chess, no move can improve the game assessment.. It can only reduce it.

"Game theoretic value" is another piece of complete nonsense. It's verbose, pompous and it doesn't help anyone to understand anything. Again, "Game assessment" or something similar is sufficient and doesn't give the impression that someone who doesn't know what they're talking about is trying to cover up their lack of understanding with pomposity.

Avatar of err0r909
tygxc wrote:

@132

"I noticed some faults in your argument."
++ I will try again.
Hypothesis: Chess is not a draw.
Look at the ongoing ICCF World Championship Finals, the strongest chess on the planet, 5 days/move average, engines allowed, 17 ICCF (grand)masters that qualified.
All 95 games are draws (or 10 by 1 player exceeded time limit in drawn positions).
If chess is not a draw and if all 95 games end in draws, then all 95 games must contain an odd number of errors.
It is absurd, that games would contain 1, 3, 5... errors and none would contain 0 or 2 errors.
Thus the hypothesis was wrong.
Thus Chess is a draw.

I admit error.

Avatar of Optimissed

I admit typing something a55-about-tail in my previous post but I edited it.

Avatar of Optimissed

Some twerp has given it a -1 because they didn't understand it.