Accepted Practice during games

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uri65
joeschmo123 wrote:

Im sure I could use game explorer and put my moves in and put my opponents move in and I could win 100% of my games.would anyone consider this playing chess? I think not.Yet this is exactly what some people do in turn based games. Is this fair play,should it be allowed.How can we stop it from happening.

No you can't do this because at some moment your opponents move will not be in the game explorer - just try it yourself.

furtiveking

First off, WCCF can say that databases are illigal all they want, there is absolutely NO WAY to enforce such a rule.

Also, ICCF DOES allow them, as well as computer engines, so it's not like the rules are standard across sites.

GenghisCant

I simply copied and pasted from the World Correspondence Chess Federation (WCCF) rules.

It doesn't specifically mention databases but it says 'or any other form of electronic consultation'...since it has already mentioned engines specifically, I am just asking what the interpretation of this is. What other form of electronic consultation exists if you discount engines?

furtiveking
Genghiskhant wrote:

I simply copied and pasted from the World Correspondence Chess Federation (WCCF) rules.

It doesn't specifically mention databases but it says 'or any other form of electronic consultation'...since it has already mentioned engines specifically, I am just asking what the interpretation of this is. What other form of electronic consultation exists if you discount engines?

Tablebases.

Ubik42
Genghiskhant wrote:

Yes, definitely. That's why you tend to find that people have a much better Online rating than Live.

Over at the right hand side (during the online turn based game) you'll see a link that says 'Analyse'. Click it and it will open a board with your current position so you can play through a few lines before making a move.

Sorry, that's why I assumed you meant during live games (which I would consider cheating). The board is there to be used during online games, so I didn't think you could be talkiing about online.

Online rating, live, and bullet are all in the 1100 range.

The analysis board has nothing to do with rating averages. Remember that rating is a relative measure, not an absolute one. if chess.com suddenly allowed computer aid in online moves, for example, ratings would not go up at all. 

GenghisCant

Just checked the ICCF rules and they say nothing about not being allowed engines either.

Wikipedia also says

'However, the influence of computer assistance remains controversial in both official and casual play, and consensus on the issue of whether to allow computer aid is still lacking.'

Which implies that, unless specifically mentioned, engine use is fine too.

uri65
joeschmo123 wrote:

jempty_method  

joeschmo123 wrote:

Im sure I could use game explorer and put my moves in and put my opponents move in and I could win 100% of my games.would anyone consider this playing chess? I think not.Yet this is exactly what some people do in turn based games. Is this fair play,should it be allowed.How can we stop it from happening.

Yet another thread replete through and through with complete ignorance of correspondence chess which I started playing FORTY YEARS AGO.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_chess where it specifically states: "Books and databases are almost universally acceptable".  And if you think you are going to win 100% by using a database, you don't have the logical ability to play decent chess.


well maybe I dont know enough about it but still for casual games this practice is not fair to me. It creates an advantage and If they dont ask permission I feel it is wrong. My opinion.

Should they ask your permission for castling? For promoting a pawn to a queen? Why should they ask your permission for anything allowed by rules?

LikeTheLake
sbooder wrote:

Hi All,

               for my last couple of games, I have taken to having a board set up next to me to follow the moves online. 

I do this so I can play through variations at critical times, as I cannot yet do this in my head or looking at the board (I keep forgetting to take away taken pieces in my head and they tend to influence the sequence).

Is this an accepted practice during a game or not?

Thanks,

Simon.

Hey Simon.  I think you got pretty interesting answers here.  I just would like to add that what you do in the board next you is what other chess players do in their minds and I don't think it is wrongdoing at all. However you really need to advance in the direction of letting that secondary board go and for that starting to play some blindfold games should help a lot.  Cheers.

sbooder

I tried blindfold chess once. I spilt wine on the board, burnt a Bishop with my fag and lost 8 games in 2 minutes because I kept knocking the King over.

PsYcHo_ChEsS
joeschmo123 wrote:

jempty_method  

joeschmo123 wrote:

Im sure I could use game explorer and put my moves in and put my opponents move in and I could win 100% of my games.would anyone consider this playing chess? I think not.Yet this is exactly what some people do in turn based games. Is this fair play,should it be allowed.How can we stop it from happening.

Yet another thread replete through and through with complete ignorance of correspondence chess which I started playing FORTY YEARS AGO.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_chess where it specifically states: "Books and databases are almost universally acceptable".  And if you think you are going to win 100% by using a database, you don't have the logical ability to play decent chess.


well maybe I dont know enough about it but still for casual games this practice is not fair to me. It creates an advantage and If they dont ask permission I feel it is wrong. My opinion.

The "Explore" option in Online chess is useful for a couple of reasons. First of all, it generally will help you to not make an awful blunder in the first few moves. It's also good because it allows you to see the main lines of different openings, as well as many other variations. Then, when you play live chess, you have a better knowledge of why certain moves are played in certain openings.

Once you use it a lot in Online chess though, you realize it's not really much of an advantage at all. It's easy to say "Well, the explorer shows that white won 80% of the games where he played Ne5 on this move". So, you play Ne5, and realize that the new position is a common one in the database and the odds change in favor for black on certain responses.

Anyway, I will say that in all of the Online games I have played a move was made at some point that creates a position that's not found in the database. So, you're now on your own, and if you played according to the best "percentages" in the GM games, you may now be in a position that is totally uncomfortable to you.

Finally I know a lot of people think "these are GM games, they always play the right move every time". Keep in mind many of those games, maybe the GM is in time pressure or just doesn't find the best possible move, after all they are all OTB games mainly. So, you're copying their moves and you might not actually be finding the best move.

GenghisCant

Sure, why not believe everything anyone says without any source or proof. Makes sense to me.

GenghisCant

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm only asking for a source. Why is that unreasonable?

Are you suggesting that I should believe everything I hear without question instead?

GenghisCant

I know the chess.com rules. I also know that others have stated that the use of databases is allowed in CC chess. That's fine, I understand that.

Also, I did search for information on the topic and came up with the below from the WCCF rules

8. CONSULTATION: 
a. Players are free to consult chess publications or literature, in printed or electronic form. Advise from another chess player is strictly forbidden.


b. The use of a chess engine (such as Chessmaster, Fritz, Rebel, etc.) or any other form of electronic consultation is strictly forbidden.


from which I based my question. I also said, at the time, that maybe I was interpreting them incorrectly and asked for other's interpretation.

I would consider a database as 'electronic consultation' as per section B. However, it could be considered an electronic publication, as per section A.

I am not in any way claiming to be an authority, but to say I didn't bother searching for information is just inaccurate. I also read the ICCF rules and there was no mention of either.

I have no problem being proven wrong. I just asked for a source to refute the one I provided, or for someone to give their interpretation of the WCCF rules.

Since I am unable to read them with comprehension, could you provide your understanding of the WCCF rules provided? I am genuinely interested.

ICCF (or other federations) might be totally different, or maybe the same, I don't know. That's why I asked.

kikvors

When I referred to "official correspondence chess", I meant the ICCF. I had never heard of the WCCF before.

Trag55

 Personally I enjoy playing my own game and making my own mistakes. 

Burke

Consulting books and databases are only going to win the game for you if your opponent has made a bad mistake that someone has made before such as a well known opening trap. On line chess is not exactly the same as regular chess.  It's a contest of positional analysis not a contest of who can assess a situation the most accurately with a clock running. If you can find a database that you believe will give you a better position then you have done your homework better than your opponent but you still have to prove you are good enough to drive that position home on your own. If you think that's not true, play against a good computer and use all the resources you have available then see what happens when the book runs out. The player who understands the position the best is going to win, not counting outright blunders, of course. 

GM_to_be

Play your own game and make your own mistakes.