Can Bughouse ever be solved

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Nordlandia

Bughouse is finite or leading towards infinite, because of the piece recycling. Any time frame speculations before we have enough processing power to figure this out.

To put this in perspective, chess isn't expected to be solved before atleast 2100 or even 2200.

waffllemaster

Of course it's solvable.  Why wouldn't it be?

grant_obama

There's no such thing. If, already, the first 4 moves let's say has 318,979,564,000 possibilities with the set starting position, who can comprehend how many possibilities there are if pieces can be randomly placed?

Nordlandia
Chess4001 wrote:

There's no such thing. If, already, the first 4 moves let's say has 318,979,564,000 possibilities with the set starting position, who can comprehend how many possibilities there are if pieces can be randomly placed?

Exactly therefore the game complexity is increased dramatically. Maybe Billion or Trillion of times larger then standard chess.

GreenCastleBlock

No, because time is important to the truth of a position.  You cannot truly solve Bughouse unless you take time into account.  A position where players A and C are up on time is tatically different than an identical position where A and D are up on time.

Suppose White waits 2 seconds on move one and plays 1.Nf3.  That's a different position than if he'd waited 1 second and played 1.Nf3.  Will that second mean the difference in the result of the game? Possibly!

Suppose now White waits half a second and plays 1.Nf3.  Suppose now White waits .2 seconds and plays 1.Nf3.  Suppose White waits .111111 seconds and plays 1.Nf3.  All different positions.

Even if you say, "There's no practical difference between .2 seconds and .111111 seconds on move 1" that means you have to draw the line somewhere.  And once you have made an arbitrary limit on the game you can no longer claim to have solved it.

TheBigDecline
Chess4001 wrote:

There's no such thing. If, already, the first 4 moves let's say has 318,979,564,000 possibilities with the set starting position, who can comprehend how many possibilities there are if pieces can be randomly placed?

Did you just make that number up?

However, don't really believe it'll ever solved, let alone Go or Chess 960.

Nordlandia

TheBigDecline, i support your idea - i really don't think humans will put mutch effort in solving bughouse. Better use resources on solvable games like Fischer Random or similar related variation.

unluckythirtyfive

Bughouse is finite and therefore solvable given a big enough supercomputer. Although, once we get to that point chances are we will be using it so simulate entire universes instead of "solving" trivial games.

b3nnyhaha

if regular chess can be solved, then yes bughouse can be solved, you simply tell your partner on board 2 to make one move, and then let their time waste away while you play the optimal moves for a normal game of chess on board 1. Since any captures on board 2 will greatly increase the complexity of the game, then this will certainly be the simplest approach with minimum counterplay. 

GreenCastleBlock
b3nnyhaha wrote:

if regular chess can be solved, then yes bughouse can be solved, you simply tell your partner on board 2 to make one move, and then let their time waste away while you play the optimal moves for a normal game of chess on board 1. Since any captures on board 2 will greatly increase the complexity of the game, then this will certainly be the simplest approach with minimum counterplay. 

Nope.  I'll let you play 15 moves of perfect chess against me, and then I will sit.  Since I have more time than your partner, who has not moved, your partner will have to move or you will lose.  I'll tell my partner to move fast to keep the pressure on your partner.  Eventually captures will happen - and optimal chess moves might create weaknesses that a bughouse player can exploit, e.g. the Najdorf would be weak because White could play a4-a5 and p@b6.

Ubik42

I teach a after school chess class. They are interested in bughouse, and I let them play it sometimes, but I have absolutely no idea about good strategies for it since I have only played about a dozen or so games in my life. 

Anyone know a good reliable source, or can condense some tips or anything?

waffllemaster

I think people are confusing very complex with infinitely complex.  It won't ever be solved, sure, but it's not impossible.

GreenCastleBlock
waffllemaster wrote:

I think people are confusing very complex with infinitely complex.  It won't ever be solved, sure, but it's not impossible.

You could say that of a lot of things, but in this case it is actually logically impossible to completely solve all positions of bughouse.  See post #5.  The moment you solve all positions of bughouse, I can create a brand new position by taking a position in your knowledge base and having a player take an additional .1 seconds for their move.

waffllemaster

Breaking the time into .1 , .01 , .001 etc and saying therefore there is infinite complexity is dumb... IMHO Tongue Out

grant_obama
GreenCastleBlock wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:

I think people are confusing very complex with infinitely complex.  It won't ever be solved, sure, but it's not impossible.

You could say that of a lot of things, but in this case it is actually logically impossible to completely solve all positions of bughouse.  See post #5.  The moment you solve all positions of bughouse, I can create a brand new position by taking a position in your knowledge base and having a player take an additional .1 seconds for their move.

That is a really good point. Time does play a huge role in what position would come out because bughouse is too dynammic. Every move pretty much creates, defends, and continue threats.

Nordlandia

Crazyhouse can be solved.