can we just take a step back about Naroditsky? - Chess Forums - Page 4

Cythaera

18 min ago

0

#61

ImweirdAT says "
So basically we both are the same except for the fact you work for free? Thats kinda dumb."

Dodge, dodge, dodge. Noemi has made a reasonable request: post specific examples of Kramnick's cyberbullying here.

I'm curious, too.

I'd wager many are curious about what this kerfluffle is really about, and they're presently busy with their popcorn.

#inbeforethelock

ImweirdinAT

18 min ago

0

#62

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

lostpawn247 wrote:

NoemiS05 wrote:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

BlackholeExpert2021 wrote:

If we are looking at this from a civil court case perspective I think while Kramnik could share some fault for hurting Danya's well being and driving him to suicide (intentional tort perhaps? Or maybe libel defamation?) It would never reach a preponderance of evidence (51% in fault of Kramnik) in my opinion because while cyber harassment is serious I don't think that alone is enough? It would also need to show that the harassment was driven with intent to cause harm and was prevalent enough. Not entirely sure, thoughts?

But where is all this supposed evidence of cyberbullying? Have you seen any? The whole of these forums and X and YouTube seem to be filled with accusations of murder and bullying etc against Kramnik - but, out of 6 or 7 full thread, and a whole bunch of YouTube comments on various videos, and a couple of Reddit threads, I haven't seen one single piece of evidence for Kramnik doing this. None whatever. It's strange.

Thats called "not wanting to see the evidence"

Okay, post here please.

We don't work for free.

Post a link then, please? Can you honestly say that you have ever seen any evidence of Vladimir Kramnik cyberbullying anyone, rather than just accusing people of cheating?

Google "You thought i was gone? Speedrun return"

"Justice for Daniel naroditsky" and i forgot the name of the Hikaru video so just look st his most recent videos and pick the one bout Naroditsky

I've seen them. Everyone has. Is this really all there is? Hikaru was one of Danya's close friends. There's nothing in them about actual cyberbullying, only cheating allegations and how it made Danya feel.

You keep bringing up cyber bullying, define it! You wanna throw around a term like that yet you dont really know its meaning, also #2 i think the mental distress caused by defamation is much bigger. Please watch the final Danya stream and then try arguing with me, you dont even feel sorry for him, all you care abt is kramniks reputation, not the life that was lost

I was a fan of both. Danya was a brilliant teacher, YouTuber and chess commentator. Kramnik is one of the top 10 greatest chess players of all time. You don't have to hate one to be a fan of the other. But nobody is hating on Danya right now, he's at peace - it's all being aimed at Kramnik, seemingly without reason. I've watched Danya's stream a couple of times now (a version with and without chat) - I don't see how it's relevant (perceived harassment is not the same thing as actual harassment, especially if he was feeling depressed). As he said in the stream, it wasn't just Kramnik who suspected him of cheating, but Nepo and others as well.

Only difference between Nepo and kramnik is that one kept on accusing while the others werent actually a bully about it

ImweirdinAT

14 min ago

0

#63

https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1841892433690337680 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1845434854114017374 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1848446487031910617 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1850108736397779166

ImweirdinAT

11 min ago

0

#64

"to repeatedly harass, threaten, embarrass, or intimidate someone, often in a way that feels anonymous or pervasive: Defintion of cyber bullying

NoemiS05

10 min ago

0

#65

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

lostpawn247 wrote:

NoemiS05 wrote:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

BlackholeExpert2021 wrote:

If we are looking at this from a civil court case perspective I think while Kramnik could share some fault for hurting Danya's well being and driving him to suicide (intentional tort perhaps? Or maybe libel defamation?) It would never reach a preponderance of evidence (51% in fault of Kramnik) in my opinion because while cyber harassment is serious I don't think that alone is enough? It would also need to show that the harassment was driven with intent to cause harm and was prevalent enough. Not entirely sure, thoughts?

But where is all this supposed evidence of cyberbullying? Have you seen any? The whole of these forums and X and YouTube seem to be filled with accusations of murder and bullying etc against Kramnik - but, out of 6 or 7 full thread, and a whole bunch of YouTube comments on various videos, and a couple of Reddit threads, I haven't seen one single piece of evidence for Kramnik doing this. None whatever. It's strange.

Thats called "not wanting to see the evidence"

Okay, post here please.

We don't work for free.

Post a link then, please? Can you honestly say that you have ever seen any evidence of Vladimir Kramnik cyberbullying anyone, rather than just accusing people of cheating?

Google "You thought i was gone? Speedrun return"

"Justice for Daniel naroditsky" and i forgot the name of the Hikaru video so just look st his most recent videos and pick the one bout Naroditsky

I've seen them. Everyone has. Is this really all there is? Hikaru was one of Danya's close friends. There's nothing in them about actual cyberbullying, only cheating allegations and how it made Danya feel.

You keep bringing up cyber bullying, define it! You wanna throw around a term like that yet you dont really know its meaning, also #2 i think the mental distress caused by defamation is much bigger. Please watch the final Danya stream and then try arguing with me, you dont even feel sorry for him, all you care abt is kramniks reputation, not the life that was lost

I was a fan of both. Danya was a brilliant teacher, YouTuber and chess commentator. Kramnik is one of the top 10 greatest chess players of all time. You don't have to hate one to be a fan of the other. But nobody is hating on Danya right now, he's at peace - it's all being aimed at Kramnik, seemingly without reason. I've watched Danya's stream a couple of times now (a version with and without chat) - I don't see how it's relevant (perceived harassment is not the same thing as actual harassment, especially if he was feeling depressed). As he said in the stream, it wasn't just Kramnik who suspected him of cheating, but Nepo and others as well.

Only difference between Nepo and kramnik is that one kept on accusing while the others werent actually a bully about it

Let's stop with the "accusing" style. Daniel Naroditsky used an engine and database midway through a live game on a Speed Run account. That is not the worst form of cheating in the world, but it is cheating, and against chess.com Fair Play rules. Technically, Danya did cheat, admitted to cheating, and that's a fact. Danya's explanation was that he did it for educational purposes, and never used the software in competitive games like Titled Tuesday. Kramnik said it was highly suspicious, that Danya should be investigated by the site, and that we don't know until an investigation was done (all perfectly reasonable). I agree with Danya - he was a great player and I doubt he needed to cheat at all - he certainly didn't need an engine to defeat weak players, that's ridiculous. But, he still technically cheated by the rules of the website, so Kramnik's call for an investigation was not just reasonable but the obvious next step? It would have cleared Danya's name.

NoemiS05

8 min ago

0

#66

ImweirdinAT wrote:

https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1841892433690337680 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1845434854114017374 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1848446487031910617 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1850108736397779166

Literally all of these are just cheating allegations, which we have already discussed.

ImweirdinAT

7 min ago

0

#67

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

lostpawn247 wrote:

NoemiS05 wrote:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

BlackholeExpert2021 wrote:

If we are looking at this from a civil court case perspective I think while Kramnik could share some fault for hurting Danya's well being and driving him to suicide (intentional tort perhaps? Or maybe libel defamation?) It would never reach a preponderance of evidence (51% in fault of Kramnik) in my opinion because while cyber harassment is serious I don't think that alone is enough? It would also need to show that the harassment was driven with intent to cause harm and was prevalent enough. Not entirely sure, thoughts?

But where is all this supposed evidence of cyberbullying? Have you seen any? The whole of these forums and X and YouTube seem to be filled with accusations of murder and bullying etc against Kramnik - but, out of 6 or 7 full thread, and a whole bunch of YouTube comments on various videos, and a couple of Reddit threads, I haven't seen one single piece of evidence for Kramnik doing this. None whatever. It's strange.

Thats called "not wanting to see the evidence"

Okay, post here please.

We don't work for free.

Post a link then, please? Can you honestly say that you have ever seen any evidence of Vladimir Kramnik cyberbullying anyone, rather than just accusing people of cheating?

Google "You thought i was gone? Speedrun return"

"Justice for Daniel naroditsky" and i forgot the name of the Hikaru video so just look st his most recent videos and pick the one bout Naroditsky

I've seen them. Everyone has. Is this really all there is? Hikaru was one of Danya's close friends. There's nothing in them about actual cyberbullying, only cheating allegations and how it made Danya feel.

You keep bringing up cyber bullying, define it! You wanna throw around a term like that yet you dont really know its meaning, also #2 i think the mental distress caused by defamation is much bigger. Please watch the final Danya stream and then try arguing with me, you dont even feel sorry for him, all you care abt is kramniks reputation, not the life that was lost

I was a fan of both. Danya was a brilliant teacher, YouTuber and chess commentator. Kramnik is one of the top 10 greatest chess players of all time. You don't have to hate one to be a fan of the other. But nobody is hating on Danya right now, he's at peace - it's all being aimed at Kramnik, seemingly without reason. I've watched Danya's stream a couple of times now (a version with and without chat) - I don't see how it's relevant (perceived harassment is not the same thing as actual harassment, especially if he was feeling depressed). As he said in the stream, it wasn't just Kramnik who suspected him of cheating, but Nepo and others as well.

Only difference between Nepo and kramnik is that one kept on accusing while the others werent actually a bully about it

Let's stop with the "accusing" style. Daniel Naroditsky used an engine and database midway through a live game on a Speed Run account. That is not the worst form of cheating in the world, but it is cheating, and against chess.com Fair Play rules. Technically, Danya did cheat, admitted to cheating, and that's a fact. Danya's explanation was that he did it for educational purposes, and never used the software in competitive games like Titled Tuesday. Kramnik said it was highly suspicious, that Danya should be investigated by the site, and that we don't know until an investigation was done (all perfectly reasonable). I agree with Danya - he was a great player and I doubt he needed to cheat at all - he certainly didn't need an engine to defeat weak players, that's ridiculous. But, he still technically cheated by the rules of the website, so Kramnik's call for an investigation was not just reasonable but the obvious next step? It would have cleared Danya's name.

N.1 points on a speedrun account are refunded, so having a speedrun account is basically sandbagging which is somewhat cheating, Niemann admitted to actually cheating to gain points, these points wouldnt have been refunded unlike Danyas, and yet kramnik loves Niemann yet hates danya, explain that to me

ImweirdinAT

6 min ago

0

#68

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1841892433690337680 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1845434854114017374 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1848446487031910617 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1850108736397779166

Literally all of these are just cheating allegations, which we have already discussed.

And if you look at the term for cyberbullying, youll see thid counts as cyberbullying

JohnNapierSanDiego

5 min ago

0

#69

marqumax wrote:

We’re all very sad about his death, but I don’t think we should blame people like Kramnik so much, Daniel became a public figure online. He knew what he signed up for, criticism, hate and false accusations.
If he had a particularly fragile personality he shouldn’t have put himself in such a vulnerable public position.
His death is tragic, but it is sort of what he signed up for.
Just sharing my point of view

THE JOHN BEAR DISAGREES. THE JOHN BEAR THINKS THAT MAYBE DANIEL NARODITSKY WASN'T TOO SENSITIVE, BUT MAYBE THE WORLD AND HUMANITY IS JUST TOO BRUTAL AND CRUEL - AND THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY BRUTAL AND CRUEL PEOPLE SUCH AS VLADIMIR KRAMNIK IN THE WORLD - AND THAT UNLESS IT'S PROVEN SOMEONE HAS CHEATED, IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL TO ACCUSE THEM PUBLICLY OF CHEATING. AND THAT'S WHAT SHOULD CHANGE. AND NO, I DON'T THINK IT'S WHAT DANIEL "SIGNED UP FOR".

BUT WHAT DO I KNOW? I'M JUST A BEAR AFTER ALL, AND THIS IS ALL HOOMUN STUFF.

NoemiS05

5 min ago

0

#70

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1841892433690337680 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1845434854114017374 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1848446487031910617 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1850108736397779166

Literally all of these are just cheating allegations, which we have already discussed.

And if you look at the term for cyberbullying, youll see thid counts as cyberbullying

By this logic, sending someone heart emojis each morning counts as cyberbullying too.

ImweirdinAT

3 min ago

0

#71

JohnNapierSanDiego hat geschrieben:

marqumax wrote:

We’re all very sad about his death, but I don’t think we should blame people like Kramnik so much, Daniel became a public figure online. He knew what he signed up for, criticism, hate and false accusations.
If he had a particularly fragile personality he shouldn’t have put himself in such a vulnerable public position.
His death is tragic, but it is sort of what he signed up for.
Just sharing my point of view

THE JOHN BEAR DISAGREES. THE JOHN BEAR THINKS THAT MAYBE DANIEL NARODITSKY WASN'T TOO SENSITIVE, BUT MAYBE THE WORLD AND HUMANITY IS JUST TOO BRUTAL AND CRUEL - AND THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY BRUTAL AND CRUEL PEOPLE SUCH AS VLADIMIR KRAMNIK IN THE WORLD - AND THAT'S WHAT SHOULD CHANGE.

BUT WHAT DO I KNOW? I'M JUST A BEAR AFTER ALL, AND THIS IS ALL HOOMUN STUFF.

Can we at least both agree this goes to far?

NoemiS05

3 min ago

0

#72

Does nobody really have anything at all? And yet, seven threads of hate towards Kramnik and people are talking of banning him and stripping his World Championship titles? I expected at least one person to have some evidence here.

ImweirdinAT

2 min ago

0

#73

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

ImweirdinAT wrote:

https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1841892433690337680 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1845434854114017374 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1848446487031910617 https://x.com/VBkramnik/status/1850108736397779166

Literally all of these are just cheating allegations, which we have already discussed.

And if you look at the term for cyberbullying, youll see thid counts as cyberbullying

By this logic, sending someone heart emojis each morning counts as cyberbullying too.

Sending someone heart emojis is normally correlated to positivity, accusing someone of cheating about 100 times is not all that positive, also, i stated the defintion, you clearly didnt read it

ImweirdinAT

1 min ago

0

#74

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

Does nobody really have anything at all? And yet, seven threads of hate towards Kramnik and people are talking of banning him and stripping his World Championship titles? I expected at least one person to have some evidence here.

Are you blind, no one wants to strip his WC title, he earned that fair and square, banning him from anymore tourneys however is i think an appropriate response

ImweirdinAT

Just now

0

#75

NoemiS05 hat geschrieben:

Does nobody really have anything at all? And yet, seven threads of hate towards Kramnik and people are talking of banning him and stripping his World Championship titles? I expected at least one person to have some evidence here.

The evidence you chose to ignore?