Can White win this?

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Avatar of mauriciolopezsr
mathot wrote:

@JamieKowalski: I took another look, and in the variation you post in #8, white has to play 4.a4 to win the game. 4.Kd4? is not needed and leads to a draw because the black king will be just in time at a8 (white's king can't prevent that due to blacks pawn).

Actually 3.a4 seems even more to the point (although 3.Kc3 does not giv away the win).

Taking the bishop is a mistake for black as it clears the way of the A pawn,so your analysis is based on a mistake; sure White wins!

Avatar of Math0t
mauriciolopezsr wrote:
mathot wrote:

@JamieKowalski: I took another look, and in the variation you post in #8, white has to play 4.a4 to win the game. 4.Kd4? is not needed and leads to a draw because the black king will be just in time at a8 (white's king can't prevent that due to blacks pawn).

Actually 3.a4 seems even more to the point (although 3.Kc3 does not giv away the win).

Taking the bishop is a mistake for black as it clears the way of the A pawn,so your analysis is based on a mistake; sure White wins!

White wins, whether black takes the bishop or not. Taking is just one of the variations that must be considered. I only statet that the final position in the diagram (#8) is a draw because whites last move is a mistake in that variation.

Avatar of StrategicPlay

STEP 1 - Put the right co-ordinates so that we approach it in the right way!

Avatar of mauriciolopezsr
mathot wrote:
mauriciolopezsr wrote:
mathot wrote:

@JamieKowalski: I took another look, and in the variation you post in #8, white has to play 4.a4 to win the game. 4.Kd4? is not needed and leads to a draw because the black king will be just in time at a8 (white's king can't prevent that due to blacks pawn).

Actually 3.a4 seems even more to the point (although 3.Kc3 does not giv away the win).

Taking the bishop is a mistake for black as it clears the way of the A pawn,so your analysis is based on a mistake; sure White wins!

White wins, whether black takes the bishop or not. Taking is just one of the variations that must be considered. I only statet that the final position in the diagram (#8) is a draw because whites last move is a mistake in that variation.

No, if black doesn't take the bishop White can NOT win! I already wrote the analysis @ #11.

Avatar of Math0t
mauriciolopezsr wrote:
mathot wrote:

White wins, whether black takes the bishop or not. Taking is just one of the variations that must be considered. I only statet that the final position in the diagram (#8) is a draw because whites last move is a mistake in that variation.

No, if black doesn't take the bishop White can NOT win! I already wrote the analysis @ #11.

Oh ok, hadn't noticed your #11, sorry about that! I only read that you misinterpreted my post and so I tried to explain that my remark about the draw was only about the final diagram in #8, nothing else.

Avatar of Math0t

This has become confusing!

Just to be sure, I just checked with houdini, and it is a win for white!

@mauriciolopezsr: And now I also know why I didn't notice your #11: it just looks like a full quote of Jamie's post, with a unreadable diagram (not sure if the latter is a chess.com bug or it's something with my configuration)

Avatar of Math0t
Avatar of Math0t

Note that 1.Be7 does not work as black can then sack his pawn with 2...d6! (the black pawn on d7 is crucial for white as it's in the way of blacks own king).

Avatar of x-5058622868

Mathot - What if 2...Kg5 instead? It gives black the option of going to e8. 

Avatar of Math0t
Sunshiny wrote:

Mathot - What if 2...Kg5 instead? It gives black the option of going to e8. 

 You mean 1... axb2+ 2. Kxb2 Kg5, not taking the h-pawn ?

Avatar of x-5058622868

No, i meant move 2... on your main line.

1. Bb2 Kxh5

2. Bxa3 Kg5 

Avatar of x-5058622868

Sorry, 2...Kg6.

Avatar of x-5058622868

Ba5 stops the pawn advance giving black time. Black can play d5 to make room for the king.

Avatar of Math0t
Avatar of x-5058622868

Aha. (Having breakfast helps! ;) ) White wins. 

1. Bb2 Kxh5

2. Bxa3 Kg6

3. Bb4 Kf7

4. a4 Ke8

5. a5 Kd8

6. Bd6  Kc8

7. a6 and all white needs to do is bring up the king to b6 for support. 

Avatar of shoopi

But why post the computer's solution already? it kinds of kills the discussion/

 

Fantastic endgame by the way. It is not only difficult, but also educating. This shows how to force a great win with the "wrong" bishop thanks to the black pawn being in the way.

Thanks for sharing!

Avatar of shoopi
Sunshiny wrote:

Aha. (Having breakfast helps! ;) ) White wins. 

1. Bb2 Kxh5

2. Bxa3 Kg6

3. Bb4 Kf7

4. a4 Ke8

5. a5 Kd8

6. Bd6  Kc8

7. a6 and all white needs to do is bring up the king to b6 for support. 

Yes well, at the end of this variation white does'nt even need his king, as after black plays 7... Kd8 white promotes.

Avatar of x-5058622868
shoopi wrote:

But why post the computer's solution already? it kinds of kills the discussion/

 

Fantastic endgame by the way. It is not only difficult, but also educating. This shows how to force a great win with the "wrong" bishop thanks to the black pawn being in the way.

Thanks for sharing!

I don't think this is different than any other discussion. People try to find the solution and post the answers. Anybody trying to solve the problem on their own won't read the comments until they're ready to see what others have discovered.

Heh, you're right, 7... Kd8 (the only option) and has moved too far from the pawn.

Avatar of Math0t
shoopi wrote:

But why post the computer's solution already? it kinds of kills the discussion/

In case you meant the diagrams I posted:  those are not computer solutions (my check on mauriciolopezsr statement that it was already analysed to be a draw however was).

Avatar of shoopi
Sunshiny wrote:
shoopi wrote:

But why post the computer's solution already? it kinds of kills the discussion/

 

Fantastic endgame by the way. It is not only difficult, but also educating. This shows how to force a great win with the "wrong" bishop thanks to the black pawn being in the way.

Thanks for sharing!

I don't think this is different than any other discussion. People try to find the solution and post the answers. Anybody trying to solve the problem on their own won't read the comments until they're ready to see what others have discovered.


Not quite.

Some people may "think" they solved it, and want to share their ideas here to be discussed with other members. Some people may want to explore different variations in a collaborate matter, or see what other people have discovered so far and continue from there.

This is all tangible since the original puzzle was given in diagram form, which encourages this kind of discussion (and human found solutions), rather than a puzzle form, which is just like you say - to each his own, as the solution is already there and all you have is to solve it for youself.

In diagram form, using a computer for finding the solution and posting it pretty much ends the discussion (unless everybody ignore the post which is a bit silly Tongue Out).

Not that hugh of a deal, just wanted to make a point. In some cases (like when most people are losing interest or have given up) it is just fine to post the solution of course...

And if mathot has found his solutions withought computer aid then I appologize as it is not the way I understood it, and props to him!