Candidate Wesley So: Thou Shalt Not Rely Exclusively on Computer Engine Preparation

HorribleTomato

So...

SeniorPatzer
BobbyTalparov wrote:

While he is still in okay shape, if I was Aronian, I would probably go back to my seconds and say "Okay, so whose idea was it to play into the line that Kramnik almost single-handedly revived?  Lets not do that again!!"

 

Lo, what if Levon's seconds said, "That was your idea Levon!  You knew Vlad was going to play the Berlin against 1e4.  Why didn't you play the Scotch or the Giucco Piano?"

HorribleTomato

Yes, Scotch!

macer75
SeniorPatzer wrote:
godsofhell1235 wrote:
SeniorPatzer wrote:

With two consecutive losses the pundits are saying that Wesley is done.  Kaput.  Out of it.  They didn't think his chances were very good going into the tournament, but with two consecutive losses, and the psychology that goes with starting 0-2 in a 14 round tournament with the best players in the world, well, it's over for Wesley. 

I've also heard that in tournaments like this, when you have a bad start, the other competitors smell blood in the water. Wins are hard to come by, so when a player is weak, they're targeted. Opponents are no longer content to play for a draw in an equal position with you as white or black (so they may even change the openings they play against you), and in endgames they'll draw it out as long as possible waiting for you to crumble.

 

I've read the same thing.  All the hungry sharks have to feed off the carcass of the weakie (it's nothing personal against Wesley), else they lose maximizing their winning chances.   I.e., "If my nearest rivals are scoring 1.5 to 2.0 points off Wesley and I'm only scoring 1 point or less, then I'm losing ground."

 

Wesley is going to seen as the punching bag, and while this is disconcerting for Wesley, this is also his best opportunity to get back in the tournament.  If other players overreach in trying to score wins off Wesley, then Wesley needs to counter-attack and punish his opponents.

 

P.S.  Wesley stopped the bleeding today by getting a draw with the White pieces against Ding Liren in Round 3.

Yup, he's back to top form! The other players better watch out!

DeirdreSkye

I think Aronian had prepared something. So did Kramnik and his prepared move was faster.

HorribleTomato
BobbyTalparov wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:

I think Aronian had prepared something. So did Kramnik and his prepared move was faster.

It is possible, but frankly, if there is one line even Magnus would avoid with Kramnik, it would be the Berlin.  Kasparov learned that the hard way.

White side or Black side?

m_n0

Everyone's an expert on the Berlin these days.

jambyvedar
m_n0 wrote:

Everyone's an expert on the Berlin these days.

 

but there are who only copy ideas and there are innovators like kramnik.

DamonevicSmithlov

Wesley does have a 2nd there. He has the lord.

Pulpofeira
DamonevicSmithlov escribió:

Wesley does have a 2nd there. He has the lord.

If I was a believer, I wouldn't ask for this type of help. I remember the case of a cyclist, can't recall his name. He said once he would pray for not losing his life on a mountain pass, but not for winning a race.

SeniorPatzer
DamonevicSmithlov wrote:

Wesley does have a 2nd there. He has the lord.

 

While that's true, Wesley will probably say that every player, and every person has the same Lord as he does (whether you recognize and trust the same Lord as he does is another matter altogether).  Akin to saying that everyone has the same Sun shining upon them.  It's not Wesley's Sun, but everybody's.

 

Again, if I was a trusted advisor to Wesley, I would counsel him to reach out to Garry Kasparov or Anatoly Karpov for help.  To have former World Champions, nay Chess Legends, to help grow your game, and he certainly needs it if he wants to challenge and topple King Magnus, is a must.

 

Kasparov's and/or Karpov's experience and knowledge of the highest levels of chess competition, priceless.  Next cycle, Wesley, next cycle.  

DamonevicSmithlov

It's way too late now for Wesley to try to get a 2nd to help for this tournament because they need time. But for future tournaments I'm thinking Karpov would be a much better fit than Kasparov because Karpovs style is closer to Wesleys than Kasparovs. Just a hunch I have. Also, personalities and other qualities matter as well, so it's really hard to guess who'd really be best.

 

SeniorPatzer
DamonevicSmithlov wrote:

It's way too late now for Wesley to try to get a 2nd to help for this tournament because they need time. But for future tournaments I'm thinking Karpov would be a much better fit than Kasparov because Karpovs style is closer to Wesleys than Kasparovs. Just a hunch I have. Also, personalities and other qualities matter as well, so it's really hard to guess who'd really be best.

 

 

That's why I said "next cycle Wesley" in my comment above yours.  

 

A fiery Kasparov might be better for Wesley precisely because his temperament and style is different from Wesley's.

DeirdreSkye

    Svidler was second in a number of cases(he mentioned that in once case he was hired one day and fired the other , that has to be somekind of record) and he also had second in a number of cases.He has talked about this experience quite a lot.

     The second must have a style of play as close to the player as possible. Wesley So is well known for not taking risks. He is almost always on the better side of a draw and his very good technique and talent has given him a lot of wins. Something that Kasparov might consider good, So might not. Then it is the intimidation factor. The relation with the second is a complicated one. If you think it's all laughs and civilised discussions about chess , then you are wrong. They spend a lot of time together and eventually there are fights.Choosing someone that is a legend , makes things hard. It will make So feel more like a student than a player.  The second must be a guy willing to obey. Karpov and Kasparov were always on the side of "giving orders". Can they be on the other side?Carlsen was preparing with Kasparov. Why did he stop?

    Also a second has to spend countless hours in front of a screen looking for possible lines or possible defects on opponent's play. I am not sure Karpov is willing to do that and have a kid telling him "do that" and "do this" or "I want that" and "I want this".

   So getting Kasparov or Karpov is not that easy as it sounds. There are many factors that make the relationship player-second thrive and the experience of the second is just one of them.

    I think Kramnik did the most wise choice with Giri and I also think he would never take Kasparov or Karpov.

SmyslovFan

I just heard a great line by Jan Gustafsson:

"Memory checks and main lines won't get you very far" as a Candidate. Basically, at the highest level, you gotta prepare some non-theoretical and new stuff.

SeniorPatzer

Wesley got a draw against Shak Mamedyarov in Round 4 today.  Watched a little bit of the commentary today with GM Aman Hambleton and GM Yasser.  Aman said:  "Wesley is stabilizing the ship."

 

Now Yasser said something which I totally expected, if you read my comments above.   Paraphrasing, but essentially the correct gist.   Yasser:  "If I was Shak's second, I would be angry and disgusted.  Shak, what are you doing?  You have to beat the tail-ender Wesley while he's wounded.  Take more risks.  You have the White pieces and you had a rest day yesterday.  Plenty of preparation to obtain an imbalanced position against Wesley, and go for the jugular.  Shak, you gotta win with the White pieces against the cellar dweller!"

 

Yasser saw this as a terrible lost opportunity by Shak.  This makes complete sense to me.  And recall that Yasser was Korchnoi's second against Karpov back in the day.

 

On the flip side, if I was on Team Wesley, I would make sure that Wesley knew that the other players are going to take chances against him, and THIS is his best chance to get back into tournament contention.  Pray and hope for the over-reach, and then counter-attack hard when they press for the win against you.

nighteyes1234
SeniorPatzer wrote:

 

Yasser saw this as a terrible lost opportunity by Shak.  This makes complete sense to me.  And recall that Yasser was Korchnoi's second against Karpov back in the day.

 

 

I suppose Yasser saw something I didnt. The games I looked at Wesley sabotaged himself, and the position was dead draw otherwise. Liren pressed with the Marshalls and it was a draw.

Of course all this when the elephant in the room is Kramnik. If they cant stop Kramnik, what chance do they have against Carlsen? Zero. And its been that way since before day 1 of this tourney. You either have the talent to get ahead or you dont....at the end of the day the wins come from being a better chess player.

 

 

nighteyes1234
BobbyTalparov wrote:

Fabiano is making a strong case that Kramnik should not be the front-runner today.  And Aronian is coming back with a vengeance against Karjakin - I wouldn't count him out just yet.

 

Nice....I remember reading somewhere that players average 100 points above their elo in these key matches...with winners likely somewhere between 125-175 above their elo. And so its good news if the underdogs can pull it off.

SeniorPatzer
BobbyTalparov wrote:
nighteyes1234 wrote:

Of course all this when the elephant in the room is Kramnik. If they cant stop Kramnik, what chance do they have against Carlsen? Zero. And its been that way since before day 1 of this tourney. You either have the talent to get ahead or you dont....at the end of the day the wins come from being a better chess player. 

Fabiano is making a strong case that Kramnik should not be the front-runner today.  And Aronian is coming back with a vengeance against Karjakin - I wouldn't count him out just yet.

 

The Kramnik-Caruana game was just wild.  Simply crazy.  Unbelievable.  Caruana just did a g7-g5 move, kinda like Kramnik did yesterday.  And then he got a winning position.  I did some tasks, thinking the game was over.  Came back to the game and then Kramnik was winning!  Fabio got in time trouble, and not only did he blow the win, but Kramnik was clearly better.  I just laughed, and felt very encouraged that at the very highest levels, blunders and time pressure and psychological pressure affect even the greatest players in the world, and thus, I shouldn't feel too bad about my game.

 

So ran off and did some errands.  Was thinking that it's Kramnik's tournament, 3.5 out of 4 and all he needs to do is draw the rest of his games.  And he'll be playing Magnus for the World Championship.  And that Anish Giri, his second, would just be shaking his head, wondering how Kramnik won a lost game against Fabi.   Kramnik had 2 passed pawns on the 7th rank!

 

So I come back, and Fabio wins the game!!!  I mean, what the heck?!?  How did Kramnik lose that game?  It was just nuts.  Vlad blundered away a rook and that was all she wrote.  Now Fabi is in sole first place with 3.0 points out of 4.  This candidates tournament just got real interesting.

 

Kramnik is not going to forget this game for a long time.  Kinda wished I watched the game the whole time.

DeirdreSkye

To me it's clear after 4th round that it will be a battle between Aronian and Caruana.

 I will be very surprised if someone else manages to keep up with these 2.

Kramnik never convinced me that he can be first. It's a very demanding and difficult tournament and he is not at his prime. He will probably though be in the first 4. In fact , anything can happen for the third place. Even So might recover and go for it if he gets a nice ego boosting win.