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Castling Structure (Which one do you prefer ?)

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DinneBolt
[COMMENT DELETED]
TeraHammer
i would say i like black better, because black's bishop is a little more mobile: white's f2 pawn blocks a route for the bishop, and white's bishop is a little more vulnerable to attacks. But, if the bishops were gone, black's king is more vulnerable on with pieces entering the castle on the dark squares
trysts

I'd have to see where the other pieces are before I choose.

PatzerLars

Other pieces are irrelevant, since the question was about a structure, not the position as a whole.

I prefer blacks castling structure.
trysts
PatzerLars wrote:

Other pieces are irrelevant, since the question was about a structure, not the position as a whole.

I prefer blacks castling structure.

So you mean which structure is more aesthetically appealing?

TeraHammer
for what reason, Lars?
TeraHammer
^ lazy answer. Ofcourse structures can be analysed without needing legal diagrams. For example, a knight on e5 is generally better placed than a knight on a1, because it has more moves.
MaartenSmit

Sure, a knight is *generally* better placed on e5 than on a1, and even that has its exceptions. Now tell me whether a bishop is *generally* better on g3 or g2.

TeraHammer
well as i said, a bishop on g3 in these castling position is less mobile due to the f2 pawn and more easily attacked. Now you say something useful.
MaartenSmit

...h5-h4 is a real threat, you know...

TeraHammer
well, f7-f5-f4 might be, often closing in the bishop on h2
TeraHammer
-.- don't reply if all you can do is mock
DinneBolt
TeraHammer wrote:
i would say i like black better, because black's bishop is a little more mobile: white's f2 pawn blocks a route for the bishop, and white's bishop is a little more vulnerable to attacks. But, if the bishops were gone, black's king is more vulnerable on with pieces entering the castle on the dark squares

In other word you will say that white King is saver. Since as the game goes on, the Bishop will leave its current position or maybe make an exchange. And f pawn will move (f2-f4 / f7-f5) and make black King a little more vulnerable. Cmiiw.

bbracken wrote:

I would have to say that black's structure is the design of some openings and takes 2 moves to accomplish as part of the opening. Whereas white's position is not necessarily the result of design but rather the result of position, pressure and tactics (and takes 3 moves at minimum to achieve).

One (black) is part of a strategy, and the other (white) a result of tactics.


Sorry for my misinterpretation, since my english isn't very good. Can you explain me the difference of "part of a strategy" and "a result of tactics". Furthermore the difference of "stategy" and "tactics" ?

TeraHammer
@Dinne If the bishops are gone, i think white is safer, because black has got weaknesses near his king on f6 and h6. But for that reason, black will try to avoid trading that bishop.
fissionfowl
DinneBolt wrote:

Sorry for my misinterpretation, since my english isn't very good. Can you explain me the difference of "part of a strategy" and "a result of tactics". Furthermore the difference of "stategy" and "tactics" ?


Buy the Kurogkug big book of strategy.

DinneBolt

@TeraHammer : So the black bishop has more value than white bishop. Since losing the black bishop would give you more pressure to the King. Sometimes i use black castling but i forgot to keep my dark bishop, that's why i feel lots of pressure after that.

@bbracken : Thx a lot for your explanation, i think i get it. So in your opinion black castling is better ?

@all : Thx for your comments and shares, i should rethink about my castling structure. But atm i think white castling still suit me more, since i always play with it (except on Bird opening). If anyone has another opinion, please share it. I would be very appreciate it.

Michael-G

Of course the placement of the other pieces is relevant.Black's structure is the well known  fianketo.The fianketo structure can be a safe shelter for the king but can also be a target to attack.Important lines are based entirely on fianketo attacks(Yugoslav attack in Dragon), books have been written on how to attack fianketo.Fianketo , depending on the position can be an asset but can also be a liability.See the next position

  White can carry out a very strong attack on the fianketo with 9.h4! .In fact White will win only 8 moves later

Same castling formation for black.The attack with 14.h4? is now wrong.Black responds 14...c5! and wins only 9 moves later.

2 games , 2 identical "castling structures", 2 identical attacks but 2 totally different  results.

trysts
DinneBolt wrote:

@all : Thx for your comments and shares, i should rethink about my castling structure. But atm i think white castling still suit me more, since i always play with it (except on Bird opening). If anyone has another opinion, please share it. I would be very appreciate it.


Yes. An International Master said, basically, that there must be context for the two structures you're deciding about, meaning it depends on how the rest of the pieces are positioned which should make the decision for you.Wink

Michael-G

........and there is no such thing as "castling structure".The  decision of where  the bishop must be developed(fianchetto or not) has nothing to do with what "castling structure" I want.It has to do with the pawn structure, the placement of pieces and the cooperation I want to achieve.

For example 

 For black , the best way to continue is ...g6 and ...Bg7 but that is because the bishop will be very strong on e5 with the long dark diagonal widely open.

If I slightly change just one move......

Now black, usually, doesn't play g6 and Bg7 and prefers Be7 followed by a later Bg5.In both cases , Black's decision is based on  the pawn structure and not on the "castling structure". 

 I am saying that because your second "castling structure"(White's) has a bishop at g3 and a pawn at h3.If you try to "manufacture" this thing , most possibly you will play 2 or more bad moves.The bishop may needed elsewhere and the h3-pawn can easily become a target.

I think you are understanding the whole thing wrong.  

DinneBolt

@trysts :Thx, i understood :D

@bbracken : Actually the knight and bishop are just complement. That 2 castling structure is the most commonly used in my experience. The first time i make the diagram there are only King, Rook, and 3 Pawns. But i think black castling need fianchettoed bishop. And it wouldn't fair if there is no white bishop. But i shouldn't put that bishop on g3, maybe it would be better on e2 or d3, so there will be no discussion about it. And for knights, they are really just complement. As you can see i just put them anywhere that make sense :D

@Michael-G : Thx for your shares. I agree that there is no such thing called "castling structure", i use this phrase to make it easier to understand. If i say "castling position" it would be ambiguous, is it castling to kingside or queenside.
About the bishop and knight, they are just complement (see @bbracken above).
So by your opinion if you want to castling like black you don't need a fianchettoed bishop ? Furthermore, even if you don't have any bishop you would still do black castling ? As TeraHammer has mentioned above on #21, on black castling the dark bishop is very important, and i agree with it.

"I think you are understanding the whole thing wrong."
I must say yes and no.
The first time i play chess is around 1993, but just for fun nothing serious. I don't play oftenly, and i just play again recently. I'm new to chess theory. Chess.com is my first online chess site. And if you check my profile, i just joined here. So yes i'm very new to chess theory, furthermore online chess.
Since we are in internet era nowadays, we can find anything including chess theory EASILY. That's why i'm asking something i don't understand here (now).
I do understand that castling is to protect the king. I do understand that when i castling it's depends on my pieces position. I do understand that the 2 "castling structure" in my first post is the most commonly used.
What i don't understand is the theory behind it, the advantages and disadvantages of each "castling structure". And since there is no such thing like "castling structure" theory or "castling structure" name (and advantages and disadvantages furthermore), so my question is completely wrong. And i think there is no need to discuss it anymore. Case closed.

@all : Thx for your shares and comments. Even it's a wrong question, at least i still learn something. Thx guys :D

 

Regards,

-DinneBolt~~

 

-Edited-
Misreading..