Castling Variation - Touch Rook First

Sort:
urk
Escher, your last doesn't make sense to me. When you castle you are not required to stay in contact with two pieces at once.

The first reply the OP got to his question was correct (mine).
SuspiciousFluke
EscherehcsE wrote:

Now that my thinking process has been recalibrated by SuspiciousFluke's prodding, I believe that the answer to your question is:

a) If Variation I is in effect, and the rook is touched first, then the king is touched, then the castling maneuver is completed: In this case, I believe that castling is allowed.

b) However, even if Variation I is in effect, if the player moves the rook first and releases the rook before touching the king: In this case, I don't think castling is allowed.

Does everyone agree with this interpretation?

I agree with this, yes. Also, apology of course accepted :)

SuspiciousFluke
urk wrote:
Escher, your last doesn't make sense to me. When you castle you are not required to stay in contact with two pieces at once.

The first reply the OP got to his question was correct (mine).

The player would not have to be touching both pieces at the same time.

- Player touches the Rook intending to castle.

- Player realizes mistake and releases Rook.

- Player picks up king and proceeds to castle as though he'd never touched the Rook.

EscherehcsE
urk wrote:
Escher, your last doesn't make sense to me. When you castle you are not required to stay in contact with two pieces at once.

The first reply the OP got to his question was correct (mine).

Maybe it would be easier for me to give Tim Just a call. :)

This is all very confusing, and I blame the rule book. The rule book discusses the case of the rook being touched first, but it doesn't clarify whether that also means that the rook can be MOVED first. In other words, in the case of the rook being touched first AND moved first (before the king is touched), does the touch-move rule supercede the castling rule, or are you allowed to first move the rook, release the rook, then move the king? I don't know for sure, and I can only make a guess.

EscherehcsE

I would lobby for the USCF to just adopt the FIDE castling rule. Yell

SuspiciousFluke
EscherehcsE wrote:

The rule book discusses the case of the rook being touched first, but it doesn't clarify whether that also means that the rook is MOVED first.

The rule doesn't need to clarify what it isn't. Only what it is. There is no mention of being allowed to take a completed Rook move back because that's not what the rule is about.

Whether or not the rule has been incorrectly written and was supposed to mean that would be an entirely different question, but the rule is not ambiguously worded.

It's just a starnge concept for the USCF to have introduced. It's the reason why it's been introduced that's confusing people more than anything. It's worded clearly, it's just such a stupid rule that people are perhaps questioning if that's what it really means (or just misreading something, which is easy to do).

Gerberk8

Castling is for sissies....a real man attacks the opponent without any delay...

urk
If you're allowed to castle rook-first then YES you can play Rf1 and release the rook.

You can then think about it for another 20 minutes if you like. Then you can pick up your king and place it on g1, completing the castling maneuver.

When you have done this and then pressed your clock, PRESTO, you have finally completed your move.

The rule seems perfectly clear to me!
SuspiciousFluke
urk wrote:
If you're allowed to castle rook-first then YES you can play Rf1 and release the rook.

No rule posted here has said you're allowed to castle Rook first. The rule says you can touch the Rook and still castle. It doesn't say you can castle Rook first. That is not said.

urk
SuspiciousFluke that is what the rule says and that is exactly what the intent is.
Obviously USCF has decided castling rook-first is not enough of a rule breach to result in loss of the game.


YOU are inventing things by talking about touching the rook, then moving the king, then moving the rook.

The rule is very clear.
SuspiciousFluke

You're 100% making that up in your own head. I can't explain it any other way to you. The rule simply doesn't say what you're saying it does.

urk
SuspiciousFluke what do you think the intent of the rule is, hmmm?
Reb

Castling is considered as a King move and the king should always be touched/moved first when castling . Many players castle using both hands but this isnt always allowed by all arbiters I dont believe . Some opponents will complain about people castling using both hands . The confusion is partly due to USCF and FIDE rules being somewhat different where castling is concerned .  I have played many tournaments under fide rules as well as uscf rules and have discovered that where they differ in the rules I much prefer FIDE's rules and find them superior/more logical . 

DrSpudnik

As I tell the kids who are just starting out: castling is a king move. You are moving the king to safety (we hope). So you start by touching the king. Do this always and you will never be entangled in a worthless, time-consuming argument.

SuspiciousFluke
urk wrote:
SuspiciousFluke what do you think the intent of the rule is, hmmm?

The intent? The idea of rules isn't for each reader to make their own guess at what the intent is behind each rule and then follow that interpretation instead of the rule itself. Everybody has to follow the same set of rules: the actual rules themselves.

If you think that the rule has been written incorrectly and doesn't say what it was intended to say then that's very bold of you but it isn't relevant here. You can't take a thesaurous to each word in the rule and substitute things in until it makes the sense that you believe was the intent of the writer.

The rule isn't ambiguous. There is only one way to correctly follow that rule. It isn't worded in a way that could mean two different things.

SuspiciousFluke
DrSpudnik wrote:

Do this always and you will never be entangled in a worthless, time-consuming argument.

Just like playing the game of chess itself, the time isn't wasted if it's interesting or enjoyable to somebody. Once I stopped being frustrated I starting enjoying this discusion.

urk
SuspiciousFluke, you haven't answered my question.

WHAT IS THE INTENT OF THE RULE IN QUESTION?

That is my question to you.

In a court of law INTENT certainly does have meaning.
stanhope13

Just stick to touching the King first.

SuspiciousFluke
urk wrote:
WHAT IS THE INTENT OF THE RULE IN QUESTION?

I don't know, urk. How could I?

urk
SuspiciousFluke, you are being intentionally obtuse and if you complained to a tournament director about your opponent castling rook-first in a tournament where this rule applies using your weird reasoning you would be DENIED.
And you know it.