Chess and mathematics

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Colin20G

@pdve
@Deirdreskye

absolutely! John Nunn has a Phd in topology and is a strong GM and incredible problem solver (the first chess book I 've ever bought - chess puzzle book - is from him. I loved this book happy.png ) 

pdve
Colin20G wrote:

#16

The idea that negative numbers don't exist (but ordinary positive numbers do) is all garbage philosophy and bullshit.

 

If you don't believe in negative numbers, you still can define relative numbers without any circular argument in the following way.

Let N the set of natural numbers; +,x denotes the usual operations. 
A "relative number " is a subset X of N^2 (the set of pairs of numbers) having the following property:
there exist a pair (a,b) in X such that for every pair (c,d), (c,d) belongs to X if and only if a+d=b+c.

if X,Y are relative numbers in the above sense we define X+' Y as the set of all pairs (p+q,r+s) where (p,r) is in X and (q,s) is in Y. We also define X *' Y as the set of all pairs (p*q+r*q, p*r+q*s).
If n is an element of N we define f(n) as the set of pairs (k+n,k) where k is any natural integer.
Finally we say that the relative integer X is strictly smaller than the relative integer Y and we write X <' Y if for some (a,b) in X and (c,d) in Y, a+d < b+c (it turns out that when it is the case then for every(a',b') in X and (c',d') in Y,we also have a'+d' < b'+c'). 


If you're motivated you can check that

1°) if X and Y are relative integers, so are X +' Y and X *' Y.

 

2°) The set of relative integers with the operations +',x' defined as above is a ring with f(0) being neutral for the sum+' and f(1) neutral for the product x' (i.e usual algebraic properties hold)

3°) for every p q natural integers, f(p+q)= f(p)+' f(q) and f(p x q)= f(p) x' f(q)

4°) for every p, q natural integers, if f(p)= f(q) then in fact p = q ( 3° and 4°  allow to view N as a subset of the set of relative integers with the same operations)

5°) <' is a total strict order and for every natural integers k l, k < l if and only if f(k) < f(l)

6°) for every X relative number, if by  -'X we denote the set of all pairs (q,p) where (p,q) is in X, then -'X is also a relative integer and X + (-' X) = (- X')+ X = f(0). -'X is the only relative number to have this property.

7°) for every relative number Y, f(0) <' Y or Y= f(0) or Y <' f(0). Y <' f(0) if and only  f(0) <' -'Y;  and  -'Y <' f(0) if and only if f(0) <' Y.

8°) if A,B are relative numbers A <' f(0) and B<' f(0), then f(0) <' A x' B (NB: so in that construction, the infamous fact that "the product of two negative numbers is a positive number" can be deduced).

 

The set of relative integers is usually abbreviated  by the letter Z.

ok you defined a bunch of stuff and gave some definitions from modern algebra but forgot to state your conclusion.

Alltheusernamestaken
pdve wrote:
Alltheusernamestaken wrote:
pdve wrote:
Alltheusernamestaken wrote:
pdve wrote:

Do you think there is any correlation between mathematical ability and chess. Where does schizophrenia fit in. There are several people who are good at math or at chess but totally worthless when it comes to dealing with other human beings of average intelligence. John Nash is the math example and Bobby Fischer is the chess example.

Please chime in.

I love maths and chess becouse I like logic and thinking outside the box

yeah that's what draws a lot of people to mathematics and likewise chess. what you said about thinking outside the box is interesting. today i was trying to solve a phsyics problem in which there is a forcce of equal magnitude acting towards the vertices of a regular pentagon. The question was what is the total force exerted on the center. Anybody can see that since it is a regular pentagon, the sum is zero but the question was how to prove it. i finally managed to come up with a proof after about two hours. i am out of touch. The simplest way you can do this is by converting the vectors to complex numbers and then summing them. The sum forms a geometric series of five terms and then you just reduce it using a simple technique to get the answer which turns out to be zero.

Chess is more involved though. There is no rule to go by. Every position is different. This is why it cannot be labeled a science.

Mate It a super easy proof

how would you prove it. don't say stuff like its obviously true. you have to prove it without resorting to a calculator, just using algebra.

By simmetry, you know all the forces are x far from the center and all have the same angle towards it so when you factorize the forces them all cancel each other.

That's one of the proofs that come to my mind.

You can also separate the penthagon into 5 different triangles so it's easier to solve as you only have to solve for on triangle by saying that when you apply 3 forces of the same magnitude towards the center on every vertex of the triangle they cancel each other as each force on a vertex divides into one a force half the magnitude on each adjacent side.

Colin20G

@pdve

"ok you defined a bunch of stuff and gave some definitions from modern algebra but forgot to state your conclusion."

my bad so:

There exist at least one relative integer which is strictly negative (i.e.  <' f(0)). It is -' f(1) with my notations (cf 7°, 5° and the fact that 1<0).

 

 

vesna10

hi colin20G

madratter7

You can define a system of math that is self consistent. Many believe that it is possible to define multiple systems of math that are self-consistent but not consistent with each other.

 

So even if the universe does follow some particular system of math, it isn't entirely clear what that system would be.

 

For example, there are certainly systems of math that include the concept of infinity. That may or may not be physical in the real universe.

 

As for chess, if someone has conclusively demonstrated that ability in math is highly correlated with ability in chess, I'm unaware of it.

 

Even if it is highly correlated, it may be because both are highly correlated with some other factor that is actually what is important (Perhaps the ability to tie your shoes).

 

 

4chan_pol

I've always been in the top 5% and graduated with the equivalent of a first in mathematics, now have a look at my elo.

Armaan30
I disagree with ability but liking chess and maths have a correlation
4chan_pol
DeirdreSkye wrote:
4chan_pol wrote:

I've always been in the top 5% and graduated with the equivalent of a first in mathematics, now have a look at my elo.

     Those that are good in a field and especially those who have PhD never improve(or almost never).

     First, they never put serious effort because they think they can do it the easy way. They think they will read something once and they will understand it , they don't need to put any effort or they will play some blitz and they will go from nothing to 2200 in a semester.

    Second, they always think that they can find correlation of their field with chess which never happens. Their accomplishments are useless in chess.

   Third, they always think they can doubt established methods of training although they are ignorants.They even think they can make their own. People that have never succesfully trained themselves think they are qualified to have an opinion on training others(and themselves). 

   Fourth , they never follow instructions. It's impossible for them to get into the mentality of kindergarten kid and just shut up and follow instructions.

 

     Till now I have seen no one showing a meaningful improvement while a regular housewife started from scratch and 6 years after  is close to 1900 FIDE. When someone comes in the chess club and the first he says is "I am a doctor" or "I have PhD in paleoanthropology" or "I was first in my class in Law school" we know he is a lost case.

 

This was kind of harsh but I get your point. Also, one more point to consider is that most of these people tend to have an extremely time-consuming passion unrelated to chess so there's that too... it's not easy to spread oneself thin and commit oneself to learning chess for long periods of time. I know for a fact that I won't be able to train regularly in the near future.

Radical_Drift
DeirdreSkye wrote:
4chan_pol wrote:

I've always been in the top 5% and graduated with the equivalent of a first in mathematics, now have a look at my elo.

     Those that are good in a field and especially those who have PhD never improve(or almost never).

     First, they never put serious effort because they think they can do it the easy way. They think they will read something once and they will understand it , they don't need to put any effort or they will play some blitz and they will go from nothing to 2200 in a semester.

    Second, they always think that they can find correlation of their field with chess which never happens. Their accomplishments are useless in chess.

   Third, they always think they can doubt established methods of training although they are ignorants.They even think they can make their own. People that have never succesfully trained themselves think they are qualified to have an opinion on training others(and themselves). 

   Fourth , they never follow instructions. It's impossible for them to get into the mentality of kindergarten kid and just shut up and follow instructions.

 

     Till now I have seen no one showing a meaningful improvement while a regular housewife started from scratch and 6 years after  is close to 1900 FIDE. When someone comes in the chess club and the first he says is "I am a doctor" or "I have PhD in paleoanthropology" or "I was first in my class in Law school" we know he is a lost case.

This is a massive generalization. For many people, precisely what allows them to get to the "top" (truthfully, phd is just the tip of the iceberg for a research career) is a child-like approach, because anyone who's had a research career knows how many times roadblocks are approached and have to constantly exercise patience to overcome them. The real reason is that there is not enough time. Anyone with sense knows that chess rating only measures ability top play chess better than others, not something more general that would be captured by math/physics/other fields. 

incorrectname

There was a post somewhere about chess and physics