Chess Players, Chess' biggest detriment - Chess Forums - Page 2

neatgreatfire

Mar 25, 2023

0

#21

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

blueemu wrote:

I'm not concerned when people talk about the pointlessness of spending years developing chess skills.

In the long run, spending your time making money or bombs instead is every bit as pointless.

You can have your gm title, I will take the 10 billion dollars. Being rich leads to a much better life than being poor. Studies on happiness have shown this to be true.

Now after you are dead, then the money becomes useless.

If your only concern is happiness, then why not leave each person to do what makes them happy? If someone enjoys chess far more than anything else money could buy, that's their decision.

If being a bigot and putting down others who have put in years to get better gives you joy, don't say anything?

I suppose I should've specified

"If your only concern is happiness, then why not leave each person to do what make them happy?" And doesn't harm others.

NM darkunorthodox88

Mar 25, 2023

0

#22

MelvinGarvey wrote:

marqumax a écrit :

What are you saying? Anyone can be 1600 with a reasonable amount of study. And chess excellence deserves recognition and respect. These people spend thousands of hours perfecting this skill and should be praised for that.

The idea that people who have spent a large amount of time and consumed efforts and ressources, for a thing no one can see when looking around, no one can hear if home or walking in the streets, no one can taste nor smell, and no one can touch nor feel, is a weird idea alone.

Then, the idea one should get praised for having been running for long after a very vain glory that only other people gifted with the same mental disorder can understand, is even weirder.

The direct uselessness of chess makes it very much a toy for kids of all ages. Spending lots of time in trying to figure out how to play better with a toy, is a childish achievement.

what an impoverished view of the world you have

neatgreatfire

Mar 25, 2023

0

#23

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

Not everyone who plays chess gives chess a bad image.

But those who believe your worth as a chess player is linked to how well you play really make the game look bad. Perhaps it is because many attributes that lead to being a good chess player also makes you socially inept.

In any case, I have met these people over the board, seen videos of a gm claiming that certain people given award will never amount to anything in the chess world, and I have seen it multiple times on this forum.

I have also seen very nice people on this board, so I am not talking about all chess players.

People making the claim that everyone can be a 1600 here or achieve a class A status with self study are simply ignorant.

The amount of study and time invested to get to a high level in chess seems worthy of praise to me. And yes, pretty much anybody can get to 1600 with enough study. Do I think that high rated players are superior people? No. Do I respect them for the amount of time they've put into learning the game? Yes.

How much experience have you had with the general population and chess?

Quite a bit. Why?

I doubt any. What experience?

I do not see why this matters to the sake of the argument as I cannot prove it.

What time experience? I will assume you are being truthful.

It's a bit difficult to say "I have spent x hours talking to people"

Most of my time talking with others has been spent in other communities for various games.

So you have little or no experience trying to teach complicated topics to large numbers of average people.

Correct.

Do you?

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#24

darkunorthodox88 wrote:

MelvinGarvey wrote:

marqumax a écrit :

What are you saying? Anyone can be 1600 with a reasonable amount of study. And chess excellence deserves recognition and respect. These people spend thousands of hours perfecting this skill and should be praised for that.

The idea that people who have spent a large amount of time and consumed efforts and ressources, for a thing no one can see when looking around, no one can hear if home or walking in the streets, no one can taste nor smell, and no one can touch nor feel, is a weird idea alone.

Then, the idea one should get praised for having been running for long after a very vain glory that only other people gifted with the same mental disorder can understand, is even weirder.

The direct uselessness of chess makes it very much a toy for kids of all ages. Spending lots of time in trying to figure out how to play better with a toy, is a childish achievement.

what an impoverished view of the world you have

You are taking a very narrow view of his comments. He's finding it "weird".....unusual, unexpected, hard to understand...etc. There's no judgement there that it is not worthwhile. You are injecting that apparently, if I'm interpreting "impoverished" as you mean it. Read it again with no filters or bias. He's not criticizing it at all. It's like saying, "What strange creatures we are." It just means hard to understand....not bad, evil, etc. MelvinGarvey definitely does NOT have an impoverished view of the world...at least based on the many of his posts that I have read.

Deadmanparty

Mar 25, 2023

0

#25

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

neatgreatfire wrote:

Deadmanparty wrote:

Not everyone who plays chess gives chess a bad image.

But those who believe your worth as a chess player is linked to how well you play really make the game look bad. Perhaps it is because many attributes that lead to being a good chess player also makes you socially inept.

In any case, I have met these people over the board, seen videos of a gm claiming that certain people given award will never amount to anything in the chess world, and I have seen it multiple times on this forum.

I have also seen very nice people on this board, so I am not talking about all chess players.

People making the claim that everyone can be a 1600 here or achieve a class A status with self study are simply ignorant.

The amount of study and time invested to get to a high level in chess seems worthy of praise to me. And yes, pretty much anybody can get to 1600 with enough study. Do I think that high rated players are superior people? No. Do I respect them for the amount of time they've put into learning the game? Yes.

How much experience have you had with the general population and chess?

Quite a bit. Why?

I doubt any. What experience?

I do not see why this matters to the sake of the argument as I cannot prove it.

What time experience? I will assume you are being truthful.

It's a bit difficult to say "I have spent x hours talking to people"

Most of my time talking with others has been spent in other communities for various games.

So you have little or no experience trying to teach complicated topics to large numbers of average people.

Correct.

Do you?

Yes I do.

I have been a math teacher in a public school for about 25 years. I have taught kids from 2nd grade through AP Calc and AP Stats and every class between. I have spent my time in remedial classes as well as with average classes.

I can tell you that some people learn more easily and others will never remember. There are extremely bright people and extremely dumb people and people all the way between. It is ignorant to assume everyone can achieve a high level of success in anything that requires knowledge retention.

blueemu

Mar 25, 2023

0

#26

So the question becomes: does a 1600 rating represent "a high level of success"?

Because if it just represents mediocrity, then any person of normal mental capability should be able to reach it.

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#27

blueemu wrote:

So the question becomes: does a 1600 rating represent "a high level of success"?

Because if it just represents mediocrity, then any person of normal mental capability should be able to reach it.

That question only has meaning when compared to something else. Like maybe a 1600 rating would be comparable to being a 15 handicap in golf?

Deadmanparty

Mar 25, 2023

0

#28

Yeah the question is intermediate for who?

Someone who participates in FIDE events and wants to be master?

Or it it someone you might meet walking down the street and just plays on the internet?

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#29

History is full of examples of ordinary people who accomplished extraordinary things, not by their mental ability, but by their determination, persistence, courage, and willingness to take risk. It's always a mistake to assume someone is "incapable". They will surprise you every time.

There are people whose minds really aren't designed for chess. Some of those people might seem mentally "ordinary", but some might even be brilliant in other areas. But by and large those people will not be interested in chess. If someone has the interest, chances are they have the ability.

When I say "interest", I mean someone who is willing to work....not someone who wants to play a few blitz games and then whine on the forum about how they're not improving.

NM darkunorthodox88

Mar 25, 2023

0

#30

Mike_Kalish wrote:

History is full of examples of ordinary people who accomplished extraordinary things, not by their mental ability, but by their determination, persistence, courage, and willingness to take risk. It's always a mistake to assume someone is "incapable". They will surprise you every time.

There are people whose minds really aren't designed for chess. Some of those people might seem mentally "ordinary", but some might even be brilliant in other areas. But by and large those people will not be interested in chess. If someone has the interest, chances are they have the ability.

When I say "interest", I mean someone who is willing to work....not someone who wants to play a few blitz games and then whine on the forum about how they're not improving.

what a convenient belief system to life by!

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#31

It works for me......probably because it's rooted in reality.

NM darkunorthodox88

Mar 25, 2023

0

#32

Mike_Kalish wrote:

It works for me......probably because it's rooted in reality.

lucky you, a man with direct access to such a realm!

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#33

@33

I'm indeed blessed. I have had more than my share of opportunities. I certainly won't deny that, but my comments are based on what I believe is true, not reflective of my personal circumstances.

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#34

@MelvinGarvey

I really enjoy your insights. I love chess as well....and I haven't figured out why. I've only been at it a year, so we'll see if it lasts. What I enjoy more is woodworking.....making things....and I know why that's better. I give most of my creations away...to friends and family. When you said:
Nothing more: no one will remember you, oh chess player, because you have brought nothing worth mentioning to the World, to life itself.
I realized why woodworking is better. I have brought things (including chessboards) to the world and to friends and family that will make their lives better and by which they WILL, in fact, remember me.

Despite that, I love chess. It's a beautiful game and its complexities tickle me.

h4java

Mar 25, 2023

0

#35

The debate here about the usefulness of chess, and the strange nature of chess players, also happens in other forms of play. Running guru George Sheehan wrote a lot on this topic in the last century. In "Running and being" Sheehan said that every runner is a unique experiment, never to be repeated. He could have spoken about chess players.

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#36

h4java wrote:

The debate here about the usefulness of chess, and the strange nature of chess players, also happens in other forms of play. Running guru George Sheehan wrote a lot on this topic in the last century. In "Running and being" Sheehan said that every runner is a unique experiment, never to be repeated. He could have spoken about chess players.

I started running in the 70's and read everything Sheehan wrote....along with Runner's World Magazine cover to cover. I haven't heard that name in decades. Thanks for the memories!

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#37

Whether we're talking chess, running, or something else, I think it's the nature of humans to seek a mystical thing we refer to as "identity". We have a sense of "If I get to 1000, I'll be somebody".... or, "If I drive a Lexus, I'll be somebody".... or "If I have a title of Dr. or Vice President, I'll be somebody."

We're all trying to "be somebody"....and some of us choose chess as the instrument to get us there. We Christians believe that true identity can only come from one place. Whatever you believe, if you're human, you are most likely seeking identity in some form. I think MelvinGarvey makes a great case that whatever you might get out of chess, it's not the place to look for identity. (Correct me if I'm wrong, MG)

Yorygog

Mar 25, 2023

0

#38

marqumax wrote:

What are you saying? Anyone can be 1600 with a reasonable amount of study. And chess excellence deserves recognition and respect. These people spend thousands of hours perfecting this skill and should be praised for that.

Why should they be praised for that?

I praise good monopoly players.

Nobody cares about your chess rating except other chess players who have no social life.

Yorygog

Mar 25, 2023

0

#39

blueemu wrote:

In the long run, spending your time making money or bombs instead is every bit as pointless.

Until you get evicted and find yourself homeless and failed as a parent.

But hey I still have my 1660 bullet rating so it is all good.

Mike_Kalish

Mar 25, 2023

0

#40

Yorygog wrote:

marqumax wrote:

What are you saying? Anyone can be 1600 with a reasonable amount of study. And chess excellence deserves recognition and respect. These people spend thousands of hours perfecting this skill and should be praised for that.

Why should they be praised for that?

I praise good monopoly players.

Nobody cares about your chess rating except other chess players who have no social life.

I don't think they should be praised for being a good chess player. There's nothing wrong with being a good chess player....or a good monopoly player (if there's skill in Monopoly), but in my humble opinion, neither is praiseworthy because neither serves God or humanity.