Chess will never be solved, here's why

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@5344
"a relatively simple version of chess which has a 50 move rule and no 3-fold repetition rule"
++ This is all besides the question.

The 3-fold repetition rule is vital. Chess might even be a win for white if repetition were forbidden like in Stratego or Go. The repetition rule is a major drawing mechanism and occurs in 16% of perfect games in ICCF WC draws.

The 50-moves rule plays no role. It is never invoked in perfect games in ICCF WC draws.
The same solution of chess without 50-moves rule also applies to chess with 50-moves rule.
If chess is solved with 50-moves rule, then that solution does not need the 50-moves rule, so that same solution also applies to chess without 50-moves rule.

MAR explained it concisely to you and you thought he was joking. He turns out to be cleverer than you are, Elroch.

You can be reported for that and there are enough people around who might do that. Best not to do it too much.

Ermm, no.  First, you can't use Stockfish in solving anyway, because it is incapable of evaluating perfect play.  Second, a GUI, that is, the user interface, would certainly not be an arbiter of any kind .

The rules of competition/tournament chess are an adjunct set of rules added on to handle pairings, avoid days or weeks long games, etc.  Solving chess is solving the basic game and its ruleset.  If you want to solve it by retrograde analysis (tablebase), then the 50 move rule or 3-fold repetition is not required.  If you want to solve it going forwards, you have to handle repetitions/circular positions, and need some criteria for moving on with analysis, ergo the 3-fold repetition rule is as good as any, but the mechanism is also not required to follow any particular rule which is external to chess.  

I wouldn't consider chess fully solved if the 50 move rule is applied, and given the processing power already required, I don't see that throwing it in the mix gives much benefit.  The choice of 50 moves is not scientific, it is arbitrarily chosen to give a human impression of exhaustion of possibilities.  In a situation where the 50 move rule could come into play for solving, you probably have one piece that either needs to reach a particular square, or a piece that needs to be forced to a particular square, so right there a 32 or 64 move rule already fits better .

My point is that "chess" generally refers to one of the games defined in the FIDE laws. Because they allow for resignation and agreed draws which occur asynchronoulsy with the moves and the results are are not prioritised in terms of win draw or loss either between themselves or with the results of completed moves, the possible results have no defined order. Is (win,win) for White better or worse than (win,draw) or (win,loss)?

You say:

"1. A (pure) strategy for a side is defined as a procedure that generates a move for any legal position ..."

Where do claims come in? Those are part of chess. A good strategy should generate a draw claim under the 50 move rule at some point if the opponent has a frustrated win. (It should also accept a draw offer in a losing position, but that would be extending the meaning of "solution".)

2. The value of a strategy is the minimum of the values it achieves against all opposing strategies.

There can only be a minimum if the results are ordered. They're not under FIDE rules.

Ergo game theory doesn't apply to chess. It could as you say be applied to abstract version of "chess" that differ only marginally from the FIDE games. 

But you define only a solution. If you want to propose finding a solution using existing software (as does @tygxc) the software will implement a concrete version of chess which also differs marginally from FIDE.

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Correct. We have discussed the difference in this problem for various rule sets.

Where in the thread has there been an explicit definition of any ruleset other than the FIDE laws? 

The first point is true. I have referred to a relatively simple version of chess which has a 50 move rule and no 3-fold repetition rule. 

But the 50 move rule by itself hardly constitutes a game. What are the rest of the rules?

And how many people would call it chess? It could, maybe, fall under USCF basic rules where the 50 move rule and triple repetition rules can individually be optionally chosen from the tournament rules where they occur but you're still left without a solvable game.

I have also discussed the huge state space of chess with a repetition rule but argued that this can be sidestepped for the purpose of solution as optimal strategies with basic chess rules only repeat positions when they are not trying to win).

The question is not about the nature of a solution but about solving. In a solution along the lines of the checkers solution the engine doesn't know whether it's trying to win or not. I guesses and if it guesses wrong it can draw positions it could have won or lose positions it could have drawn. Would not avoiding repetition simply give wrong results?

This is slightly less complex as the half-move count can be omitted from the state space.

Try practising positions like this against Syzygy both ways and then tell me it's slightly less complex.

8/8/5N2/p7/8/k1K5/8/1N6 b - - 0 1 (for some reason the setup's decided to misbehave)

This position flakes out SF which assumes both rules.

 [FEN "7k/8/8/8/8/8/1R6/1K6 w - - 0 1"]

1. Ka1 Kh7 2. Kb1 Kg7 3. Ka1 Kf7 4. Kb1 Ke7 5. Ka1 Kd7 6. Kb1 Kd6 7. Ka1 Ke6 8.
Kb1 Kf6 9. Ka1 Kg6 10. Kb1 Kh6 11. Ka1 Kh5 12. Kb1 Kg5 13. Ka1 Kf5 14. Kb1 Ke5
15. Ka1 Kd4 16. Ka2 Kc3 17. Rh2 Kd4 18. Rb2 Kd3 19. Kb1 Kc3 20. Rh2 Kd4 21. Rb2
Kc3 22. Rh2 Kd4 23. Rb2 Kc3 24. Rg2 Kd3 25. Ka1 Kd4 26. Ra2 Kc3 27. Rg2 Kd4 28.
Ra2 Kc3 29. Rf2 Kd3 30. Rf1 Kd4 31. Rb1 Kc3 32. Rf1 Kd4 33. Rf2 Kc4 34. Rb2 Kd4
{Stockfish 15-martin} 35. Rb5 Kc4 36. Rh5 Kd4 37. Kb2 Kc4 38. Ra5 Kd4 39. Kb3
Ke3 40. Ra4 Kd3 41. Rb4 Kd2 42. Rd4+ Ke2 43. Kc3 Ke3 44. Kb4 Kxd4 

Of course, the lack of a 50 move rule may change the optimality of strategies, but I confidently believe (without proof) there are single strategies that are optimal for this version and the two others.

That's sounds hardly different from @tygxc's assertions that his ICCF games are perfect. I strongly doubt it. Do you have any basis for your confidence?

My own reasoning arrived at GT only being applicable to chess if a player wishes to use it to generate moves that are not necessarily the strongest moves but those most likely to generate an error from an opponent. And that, in practice, it would be too cumbersome to use by a human player, who is not allowed to use or make written calculations, of any type, during a game.

Since all versions of chess or of anything are "abstract" when they are not being used, are hypothetical or don't exist in practice, I didn't see any necessity to confuse the issue by referring to it.

There's a difference between game theory and combinatorial game theory, as I pointed out long ago.  The entire reason that combinatorial game theory came to be is because of the distinction between the two directions each travels in.

Elroch said:

Game theory does not deal with probabilistic outcomes in games like chess (deterministic, perfect information).

I fail to see how that means he is championing game theory as the key to solving chess.  What I do see is that deciding that chess is *not* a game of perfect information is an attempt to turn the solving of chess into a religious belief.  It's objectively a game of perfect information.  The capability of human beings to absorb that perfect information does not factor in.

But it's not a zero sum game without some changes to the FIDE rules.

FIDE derives from Chess, not the other way around.  It's an illusion that FIDE controls the rules of the game.  It merely makes pronouncements and attempts to push chess players in one direction or another.  When they do not follow, FIDE is the entity that must amend itself .

The history of Chess is relatively FIDE-free when you look at it in total.

And it's had an awful lot of different versions each with its own solution.

I agree FIDE needs to get its act together regarding the rules. It can't be that difficult.

But have you ever come across any set of chess rules that defines a zero sum game?

Except that the information turns out to be less useful than perfect information should be.

It's analagous to having the information needed to determine a correct sequence of moves presented in a code, which cannot be broken: except, perhaps, with the help of the most powerful computers.

Your argument boils down to "it's hard to know things we don't know yet even when all the pieces are right in front of us".  Which is a statement, and it is true (literally, in the case of the pieces being right in front of us)...but it doesn't have much bearing on the discussion.  

That's what solving chess is all about, old bean. Is this discussion about solving chess? Can you do it in your head with 100% accuracy??

It has all the bearing on this discussion it requires, old thing.

You always give the point up when you try to inject dismissive humor.  It's like a tell in Poker.

Oh yes, so you're contesting what is told on account of the language used to tell it? I don't think that quite works, sadly for your assumption.

     You can't find such a quote because it never existed. I did say I believe that  1.e4  e5  2.Ba6  is losing for white, but certainty is by definition "established beyond dispute", and I repeatedly admitted that it is possible I might be wrong. Unarguable proof is still lacking.

I believe you used the word "certain". I would not have mentioned it if you hadn't, since I always attempt to be completely honest. If you wish to deny it, that's up to you and it takes nor adds nothing to the discussion, so it's better left to rest.

Any FIDE rules that are not found in the pamphlet with a chess set that you might buy for a child are of no interest here.

It's about the legal moves and how a result is reached as a result of those moves. Those rules make the game finite and it can be assumed games are played to a finish.  This is in common with the entire academic literature relating to this class of games ("combinatorial games" as @btickler reminded us they were called)

     What you believe will not always prove to be true in the long run. You were the first to mention my supposed use of the term. I object to your putting words into my mouth and then chiding me for "saying" contradictory and/or incorrect statements, then publicly insinuating that I must be drunk, insane, or deviously deleting posts when I point out you are mistaken. However wonderful you think your memory may be, you are obviously wrong on this point.

     And if things were "better left to rest", what was the point of reiterating your unfounded claim? You seem to need to always have the last word in order to convince yourself of your mythical greater intelligence and understanding.  

     Let's see if you can actually practice what you preach and let this drop.