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Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5561
NervesofButter wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
NervesofButter wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

No. Healing with your mind would be impossible. They'd finish up with leprosy.

The mind is a powerful thing.  And I do absolutely think that it is possible to heal yourself by being positive, thinking positive, and staying positive.  But healing someone else WITH your mind?  Gonna have to pass on that one.



I have one or two ideas regarding the nature of thought, which would mean that it's possible.

This actually did interest me at one time.  So i took the time to read and research it.  I just cant find anything that proves this possible.  Not saying it isn't possible, because im sure there are still many things we dont know about and or understand.  Im just not convinced.



I understand but it isn't a question of belief, so it isn't a question of being convinced or not. For every positive affirmation, you will find a counter-argument. It isn't something that our reason can really interpret or evaluate, unless and until there's an understanding that people's minds aren't limited to the insides of their heads. That, for the average Western mind, is quite a challenge to contemplate. And there is a sacrifice, before you can use it. Do you want to know what that sacrifice is?

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5562
btickler wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Very good but I suggest we leave it to the expert, who knows all about its non-existence.

Your ploy to get me to try to take a stand on something you know you can cast doubt on endlessly is noted, but I don't have time to waste teaching you why "mind over matter" is not possible for you.

You'll have to settle for all the other times I've blown your arguments out of the water.


The "in your mind" version or the real one? You couldn't blow a gnat out of the water.

Avatar of MARattigan
MARattigan
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5563

Can't you do this on the Qanon site?

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5564
NervesofButter wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
NervesofButter wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
NervesofButter wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

No. Healing with your mind would be impossible. They'd finish up with leprosy.

The mind is a powerful thing.  And I do absolutely think that it is possible to heal yourself by being positive, thinking positive, and staying positive.  But healing someone else WITH your mind?  Gonna have to pass on that one.



I have one or two ideas regarding the nature of thought, which would mean that it's possible.

This actually did interest me at one time.  So i took the time to read and research it.  I just cant find anything that proves this possible.  Not saying it isn't possible, because im sure there are still many things we dont know about and or understand.  Im just not convinced.



I understand but it isn't a question of belief, so it isn't a question of being convinced or not. For every positive affirmation you will find a counter-argument. It isn't something that our reason can really interpret or evaluate, untess and until there's an understanding that people's minds aren't limited to the insides of their heads. That, for the average western mind, is quite a challenge to contemplate. And there is a sacrifice, before you can use it. Do you want to know what that sacrifice is?

Correct me if im not understanding you here: "...it isn't a question of belief, so it isn't a question of being convinced or not. "

Are you saying that i am simply supposed to accept this as fact?


Of course not. I'm not btickler or anything like him. Some people have experiences and sometimes they reject them, usually as being inconsistent. Other times, because they can't rationalise them. Still others because they assume they're in their imagination only. You have to accept the experiences if you have them and that won't be instantaneous but you might start to notice a pattern. If you're Elroch, that's when you assume you're imagining the pattern by confirmation-bias. That happens if you can't trust yourself. You don't trust yourself if you're scared of being wrong. At least, that's one reason.

One of the sacrifices is the fear of being wrong. It IS a sacrifice because it authomatically makes you different from most others, if that happens.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
DiogenesDue
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5565
Optimissed wrote:

The "in your mind" version or the real one? You couldn't blow a gnat out of the water.

You might be hard-pressed to find someone who can blow a gnat out of the...water? wink.png

You are mixing your metaphors.  It's ships that we blow out of the water, and gnats that we shoo away from picnics.  Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5566

Yes I often like to mix metaphors. One reason is that it irritates unimaginative people.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5567
NervesofButter wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
NervesofButter wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
NervesofButter wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
NervesofButter wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

No. Healing with your mind would be impossible. They'd finish up with leprosy.

The mind is a powerful thing.  And I do absolutely think that it is possible to heal yourself by being positive, thinking positive, and staying positive.  But healing someone else WITH your mind?  Gonna have to pass on that one.



I have one or two ideas regarding the nature of thought, which would mean that it's possible.

This actually did interest me at one time.  So i took the time to read and research it.  I just cant find anything that proves this possible.  Not saying it isn't possible, because im sure there are still many things we dont know about and or understand.  Im just not convinced.



I understand but it isn't a question of belief, so it isn't a question of being convinced or not. For every positive affirmation you will find a counter-argument. It isn't something that our reason can really interpret or evaluate, untess and until there's an understanding that people's minds aren't limited to the insides of their heads. That, for the average western mind, is quite a challenge to contemplate. And there is a sacrifice, before you can use it. Do you want to know what that sacrifice is?

Correct me if im not understanding you here: "...it isn't a question of belief, so it isn't a question of being convinced or not. "

Are you saying that i am simply supposed to accept this as fact?


Of course not. I'm not btickler or anything like him. Some people have experiences and sometimes they reject them, usually as being inconsistent. Other times, because they can't rationalise them. Still others because they assume they're in their imagination only. You have to accept the experiences if you have them and that won't be instantaneous but you might start to notice a pattern. If you're Elroch, that's when you assume you're imagining the pattern by confirmation-bias. That happens if you can't trust yourself. You don't trust yourself is fou're scared of being wrong. At least, that's one reason.

One of the sacrifices is the fear of being wrong. It IS a sacrifice because it authomatically makes you different from most others, if that happens.

To the person that has experienced this it is real?  To anyone else they can believe, not believe, have doubts?


I think so. Also I admire your ability to talk about this in public.

Avatar of Elroch
Elroch
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5568

I never change my horses in the bush in time.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
DiogenesDue
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5569
Optimissed wrote:

Yes I often like to mix metaphors. One reason is that it irritates unimaginative people.

Yes, I'm sure that is the reason you tell yourself.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5570

It's real to me. Completely. I have no doubt that we can alter the world with our minds. None at all.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
DiogenesDue
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5571
Optimissed wrote:

It's real to me. Completely. I have no doubt that we can alter the world with our minds. None at all.

My continued existence belies your powers wink.png.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5572
btickler wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Yes I often like to mix metaphors. One reason is that it irritates unimaginative people.

Yes, I'm sure that is the reason you tell yourself.

I'm just trying to wonder what other reason there could be. It's fun to mix metaphors. Some people like it. Others dislike it. I would argue that those who dislike it might do well to stick to what they do best and let others do what they wish, since it's harmless enjoyment for many.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5573

Otherwise we could draw placards, saying things like "Supports transgender rights but rightly condemns the mixing of metaphors".

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5574
NervesofButter wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

It's real to me. Completely. I have no doubt that we can alter the world with our minds. None at all.

And if it is something you believe in that is what counts.  My belief in God is not dependent on what others think. 

***MODS*** Please do not lock this for my God reference.  Its a one time thing to prove a point.


Of course. It's true for you. Since it's true for you, it works for you.

Avatar of MARattigan
MARattigan
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5575

Reading difficulties again? 

It says, "Chess will never be solved, here's why and what's @Optimissed's IQ and does he turn water into wine or the other way round and what did his family have for breakfast", does it?

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5576

They only lock threads if it turns into an argument.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5577
MARattigan wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

It's real to me. Completely. I have no doubt that we can alter the world with our minds. None at all.

Of course. Learn medicine.


I let my daughter in law do that. Do I need to too?

You should paint everything orange. No red or blue allowed. It would suit you.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5578
Elroch wrote:

I never change my horses in the bush in time.


You should keep one in midstream to fall back on.

Avatar of Elroch
Elroch
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5579
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:
... Science, by contrast is a black box which takes in observations and generates and tests models which describe patterns in those observations. ...
Is that what Newton would be doing if by using the word "two" in the hypothetical statement I gave or would he be using mathematics? 
I would say no, on the grounds that a caveman with no mathematics would understand the concept of an object and another object that was not the first object. It is a very basic structural concept, so you could be terribly pedantic and argue it is primeval mathematics. Mathematics is about the structure. So, when Newton's work involved arithmetic like addition or multiplication, he was (of course) using mathematics. More fundamentally, he did so when he said there was a scale of mass (and many other things) where quantities were associated with real numbers.  The notion that there is a scale of mass and you can add masses is non-trivial use of mathematics.
This discussion brings to mind how huge a deal it was to do things like quantify physical quantities with numbers at first. We are so used to it, we forget that.

... you start with an intuitive notion of a mathematical object - eg the counting numbers - then you find some axioms that represent your intuition. ...

In the link I gave those axioms are just the logical axioms.

Principia is a work on constructing mathematics on a single foundation. Set theory and logic are typically used.

Then you are off to the races (as say Euclid was).

Only more or less if you read the Elements, but you'd hardly say it wasn't mathematics.

I didn't. I used it as a canonical example of mathematics

 

Not sure what you did to the format there...

Avatar of Mike_Kalish
Mike_Kalish
Sep 30, 2022
0
#5580
llama36 wrote:
mikekalish wrote:

I always thought of science as "What humans know about the physical universe" and mathematics as the "Language we have devised to describe that knowledge".  And to me, they are two very different things, even though they are closely related.

That's probably a very crude way of looking at it, and likely I'll be corrected....but go easy. I'm old. 

It goes beyond that though. The fun thing about math is it could still be done even if this universe didn't exist. If nothing we know of existed, we couldn't talk about color or shape or time, etc. But all the math we know right now would still exist.

That's not the "fun" thing for me. The "fun" thing about math for me is how it describes the physical universe. 

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