Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of mpaetz
Optimissed wrote:


Proof is being systematically misrepresented as, more or less, something that the experts understand, interpret and recommend to lesser mortals. A proof has to be so according to criteria used by the experts. You have put yourselves forward as "leaders of the lesser mortals", into which category you place basically everyone, because you have no idea who is capable and who isn't, unless they produce a piece of paper, bought and paid for in one way or another. Therefore everyone has to believe what YOU want them to believe and if they dare to speak, say things that you approve of. The scientists are now the priests and the fact that they are humans with their own intellectual biasses doesn't come into it.


     A real proof is a thorough systematic explication that can be reproduced by anyone who so wishes, and is laid out completely and in detail so that it may be examined for imprecise methodology and untenable conclusions.

     YOU (and Ponz to a far lesser extent) are the one that uses self-proclaimed superior intelligence and greater understanding of chess, as well as the experience of GMs and top correspondence players, to hand a judgement that "we" all agree on. Dissenters must provide a much stronger proof to the contrary, but your belief is enough to make your opinion fact.

Avatar of playerafar
Elroch wrote:

Inductive reasoning is extremely important in the real world - it is the kernel of the scientific method, for example - but it never reaches certainty (except where it reduces to trivial deductive reasoning - eg hypothesis = all the balls in an urn are black, evidence = one white ball is taken out)

No, I am not "playing the game". I am participating in rational discussion where everyone (that matters) agrees on the reasoning that is valid.

The fact that you responded without becoming aware of what combinatorial means shows the root of your difficulty. The correct response was to look the word up. This process, executed habitually thousands of times, means all those involved in rational discussion speak the same language, the language of rational discourse about that topic.

Solving chess is a combinatorial problem because it is about a finite system. There are a finite number of positions. There are a finite number of strategies that determine play for one side. The question is whether there exists a strategy for one or other side that wins.

Handwaving is not sufficient to prove this. There are games where very simple reasoning suffices (such as it is easy to show the second player in generalised tictactoe cannot ever have a winning strategy). No-one has demonstrated this is true for chess (and I would bet my life it is not possible).

Good post !   
I agree with most of it.
The final statements there can be qualified though -
Its not possible now to solve chess.  
Is that proven?  Is the fact that it isn't - 'proof' ?
Not exactly.   For some - proof is just 'wanting to believe it or push it'. 
Anyway - given strong enough hardware/software/programming combined with enough time (there might not be enough time if the global warming deniers and the nukes people and the anti-environmental people get their way - and they might)
then chess might someday be solved.
And @Elroch won't be able to 'bet his life' if he's not around by then ...
(probable)  happy.png

Avatar of Optimissed
mpaetz wrote:
Optimissed wrote:


Proof is being systematically misrepresented as, more or less, something that the experts understand, interpret and recommend to lesser mortals. A proof has to be so according to criteria used by the experts. You have put yourselves forward as "leaders of the lesser mortals", into which category you place basically everyone, because you have no idea who is capable and who isn't, unless they produce a piece of paper, bought and paid for in one way or another. Therefore everyone has to believe what YOU want them to believe and if they dare to speak, say things that you approve of. The scientists are now the priests and the fact that they are humans with their own intellectual biasses doesn't come into it.


     A real proof is a thorough systematic explication that can be reproduced by anyone who so wishes, and is laid out completely and in detail so that it may be examined for imprecise methodology and untenable conclusions.

     YOU (and Ponz to a far lesser extent) are the one that uses self-proclaimed superior intelligence and greater understanding of chess, as well as the experience of GMs and top correspondence players, to hand a judgement that "we" all agree on. Dissenters must provide a much stronger proof to the contrary, but your belief is enough to make your opinion fact.

To be fair, I don't make a habit of telling people I'm cleverer than they are but unfortunately, it's slipped out in the past and I'm never allowed to forget it. I used to find it frustrating that people couldn't follow my arguments, or didn't want to. I tend to accept it nowadays. It's just a phenomenomoenomenon which sometimes repeats itself and, if it isn't important, which is most of the time, I let it go.

Incidentally, some proofs are more certain than others. For instance, at school I learned various, mathematical proofs, particuarly in geometry. But here, there's often quite a bit of argument regarding how proofs should be constructed and which data is acceptable and which isn't. Also, how it should be analysed. This puts us in the region of inferential proofs; which, actually, are NOT proofs at all, in the real meaning of the word. They might be called conclusions, however.

Since the title of *this* thread is "chess will never be solved", well, naturally I agree with that, wholeheartedly. The unfortunate part of it is that certain people seem to want me to prove that it'll never be solved. That raises certain questions, perhaps including the one as to whether it can ever be profitable to even deal with people who make such eminently stupid demands.

Elroch, above, is trying to explain about the uncertainty of inductive reasoning. He does his best and is often very erudite but occasionally **even I** find his offerings overly dry and insufficiently explained, so Heaven knows how the rest of you are going to cope! I don't think chess will ever be solved and Elroch thinks it "just might be, some day". That puts us very close together, in our opinions.

Avatar of MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
...

To be fair, I don't make a habit of telling people I'm cleverer than they are ...

You represent yourself as honest?

Avatar of Optimissed

Yes, very honest. It's just a (dishonest) weapon that you've learned to use, because at heart, you're nothing but a troll. I can remember how you used to deliberately tie Ponz up in knots, and he was 78 years old at the time. It was deliberate and he couldn't defend himself. That was contemptible.

Avatar of MARattigan

You spend half your posts doing exactly what you say you don't make a habit of.

(And the other half proving yourself wrong.)

Avatar of MARattigan

As for contemptible, I would have said helping to get another poster here blocked from a thread,  then posting personal attacks on that thread when he couldn't reply, was not exactly playing the Englishman. 

Avatar of Optimissed

Incidentally, the result of that is that Ponz hasn't been online here since mid November. He's still alive ... I checked up on him, the other day. He was possibly the most brilliant correspondence chess player in the game's entire history and he never comes here any more. That may well be because he doesn't think himself to be among friends here, which is a complete disgrace; and you are, to a large, extent, responsible for that. I was keeping this to completely myself, up until now.

Avatar of Optimissed
MARattigan wrote:

As for contemptible, I would have said helping to get another poster here blocked from a thread,  then posting personal attacks on that thread when he couldn't reply, was not exactly playing the Englishman. 

I have no idea what you're talking about. The O.P. here closed his account and he was the only person who could block people from this thread, whereas if people make personal attacks on others and the moderators see it, they certainly don't act, if they decide to act, on the say-so of any members here.

Avatar of MARattigan

I was talking about you posting personal attacks on @btickler on  Ponz's thread after he had been blocked from the same.

I thought @ponz111 and I were having an interesting and lively discussion on that thread until you decided to bend your efforts to persuading him that I was trolling (aka pointing out to you how daft your "proofs" were). So I got blocked too. Shame.  

Avatar of playerafar
MARattigan wrote:

As for contemptible, I would have said helping to get another poster here blocked from a thread,  then posting personal attacks on that thread when he couldn't reply, was not exactly playing the Englishman. 

In addition to running to the moderators - and also threatening to do so - he apparently also cuddles up to the opening posters too.  
Remarkable that they allow him to do so - and block for him.
How could that possibly happen ?
Could be related to something that also happens in clubs -
I've seen it ...
club owners or superadmins (or even just admins) say
"hey - he's Half our activity !  We're not going to mute him nor ban him !" 
But then they get super-duped and there's 'protection'. 
Double standards in the admin policies. 

Is the same thing happening in the forums too?
I doubt it.  But for some reason there's no 'chess will never be solved' forum free of that "you're in league - you're all stupid - there's a 'conspiracy' - I speak for everybody !" stuff.
Why not?
Because people with the resolve to block same who are also popular enough to attract many posters - don't see the subject as worth their time to make a forum about "chess will never be solved". 
so the reaction:
"Yes - that's probably right.  So what's there to talk about there?  And if it is ever really solved - lets talk about it Then"  happy.png

There might also be issues concerning people of the same nationality.
Unwillingness to go against him.
Some countries are notorious for that.  

Avatar of playerafar
MARattigan wrote:

I was talking about you posting personal attacks on @btickler on  Ponz's thread after he had been blocked from the same.

I thought @ponz111 and I were having an interesting and lively discussion on that thread until you decided to bend your efforts to persuading him that I was trolling (aka pointing out to you how daft your "proofs" were). So I got blocked too. Shame.  

When I first encountered 'his' behaviour - I didn't know it was a long-standing thing in the forums.
Anyway - until there's a new forum with most everyone else allowed except him - he will continue - and may succeed in controlling every such forum ...
espeically if people perceive him as being in control.  Exactly what he's looking for.  

Avatar of Optimissed

I think that what you should realise is that it looks to me like there are three trolls who habitually conglomerate together and one or two more who perhaps shouldn't give them the credulity they do. I have no idea whatever, whom you think I'm responsible for "getting blocked". I was given a month's diamond membership in November, exclusively for "helping to keep the forum a happy place" or similar words to that. It was quite a surprise but I was also asked to report people who were obviously attacking others for no reason, as well as spammers and those making other types of unsuitable post. I think I made two or three reports but they tend to be unofficial. Just "have a look at this and see what you make of it".

Of course, if there are those here who DON'T think these forums should be kept friendly, in a community-spirited way, I would tend to believe it. I like just about everyone here on Chess.com. But I dislike those who work with others in combinations, to harm the well-being of members. And I took a particular dislike regarding what happened to Ponz and how he was deliberately made to suffer, in 2021. I believe I'm entitled to such reactions, just as you're entitled to yours. There's one person who has temporarily sided with the others, whom I don't believe is a troll at heart. I would like to appeal to that person to move over, away from the dark side.

Avatar of playerafar

At least - the history of this is coming out.
Obviously - he's going to deny everything - while accusing others of 'dishonesty'  (projection yet again) - and probably he's one of those who almost never or actually never - concedes any point.  

But what about chess?  And the discussion about 'solved'?
There just might not be enough interest.  
The forum subject will maybe just be a 'football' kicked around to serve a contest that has nothing to do with the forum subject.  

Avatar of MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:

... It was quite a surprise but I was also asked to report people who were obviously attacking others for no reason, ...

So why didn't you turn yourself in?

Avatar of Optimissed

As long as you continue to make personal attacks mixed in with your pretence of being concerned only with chess, you will obviously never be involved in discussions about chess. It's your choice. Pull yourself together and focus on what you claim interests you and redemption will surely follow. happy.png

Avatar of playerafar

His step 1 - Get somebody muted banned by the moderators
step 2 - threaten to do so
step 3 - cuddle up to the opening poster
step 4- get whoever blocked
step 5 (if those didn't work) - heckle every single post made by every single poster advancing any position at all.
Such heckling to include massive projection - strawmen - illogic and dishonesty to provoke responses.
step 6 - go back to step 1.

Avatar of Optimissed
MARattigan wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

... It was quite a surprise but I was also asked to report people who were obviously attacking others for no reason, ...

So why didn't you turn yourself in?

If I called you an idiot for saying that, would it be a personal attack or a justified reaction? Your call and do try to concentrate on finding the correct solution.

Avatar of playerafar

It is a good question - why didn't he turn himself in?
Earlier he called somebody here a psychopath ...
why didn't he turn himself in?

Avatar of MARattigan

@Optimissed

"If I called you an idiot ..."

Then we could call it a draw by 5-fold repetition.