Chess will never be solved, here's why

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tygxc

@104

"chess is NOT a game of perfect information"
++ Chess IS a game of perfect information,
just like Checkers and unlike poker, backgammon, Stratego, bridge...

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@10435

"Game Theory is a statistics-based approach which depends on probability "
++ You confound Game theory (not applicable) and Combinatorial game theory (applicable).

No, read my explanation. Try to understand it too, rather than thinking you're right on the basis of your incorrect understanding. For practical purposes chess is NOT a game of perfect information. I already explained why, twice at least.

Try it again with the accepted meaning of "game of perfect information" instead of whatever Humpty Dumpty interpretation you happen to come up with at the time.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

the terms of "ultra weakly solved, weakly solved, strongly solved" are all well defined and require rigorous proof. most of the disagreement comes from the fact that people do not understand the terms properly, or do not understand the rigor required for the proof.

The terms were introduced by games theorists. They have no connection to "solving chess" since the so-called strong solution is known to be impossible, so what are you talking about?

You can't prove a definition, by the way. A definition is a descriptive meaning that is applied to a name. If you keep listening to Elroch, you are not going to learn a thing.

It should be obvious to anybody who is not seriously subnormal that the question is about solving chess in terms of game theory. If that is currently impossible (it can't be logically impossible) then the answer is simply it can't currently be solved, not let's waffle on about something else instead and call that solving.

And it should also be obvious to anyone not severely subnormal that when @MEGACHE3SE says that the definitions require rigorous proof it means that the definitions include a requirement that solutions meeting the conditions require rigorous proof, not that the definitions themselves require rigorous proof.

Before posting on the subject you should understand what solving chess involves in terms of game theory. It's not hard for most people. If it proves to be impossible for you then the answer is simply to refrain from posting. (Reflect on your second paragraph.)

Yes but he was wrong, since a full game tree for chess from the initial position isn't possible. Does that make you severely subnormal because it's obvious to me that you don't know what's going on?

No but it does raise doubts about yourself. What he wrote was:

the terms of "ultra weakly solved, weakly solved, strongly solved" are all well defined and require rigorous proof.

That is correct and your comment, "a full game tree for chess from the initial position isn't possible" is not connected with it in any way. So your first sentence is an application of what you as Humpty Dumpty mean by "logic", which itself is not connected in any way with the accepted meaning of "logic".

You already pointed out maybe yesterday that you never know when I'm joking and when I'm not.

When you spend half a page listing faults which describe you to a T and accusing the rest of the universe of suffering from them, I think my uncertainty is understandable.

You probably also think Dio and Elroch aren't suffering any cognitive and/or mental difficulties.

I haven't seen anything to suggest any such problems, so you would be correct. 

DiogenesDue
Luke-Jaywalker wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Luke-Jaywalker wrote:

Optimised landed a nice right hook!!

he is leading on points.

He didn't, and you know it full well...this is just pot stirring for your own amusement.

aggro!

Pragmatism and experience. I happen to have a good memory, Luvsmetuna.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

I haven't seen anything to suggest any such problems, so you would be correct. 

You don't have the ability to tell and you are also someone who cannot be trusted to be honest if you could tell. Your opinion is worth zilch.

In some cases such problems are obvious to the untrained eye.

DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

@10388

"these 3 definitions implement very differently for different games" ++ Yes.

"for chess, weakly solved and strongly solved are both >10^40 endeavors" ++ No.
Strongly solving Chess requires 10^44 legal positions, weakly solving 10^17 relevant positions.

Nobody has ever agreed with your 10^17 fantasy. Not one poster, ever.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@104

"chess is NOT a game of perfect information"
++ Chess IS a game of perfect information,
just like Checkers and unlike poker, backgammon, Stratego, bridge...

Draughts (checkers) is analysed and understood, so it's a GOPI.

Consider the chess position after 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6. You and I know that it's a clear loss for white and yet there are two people here who aren't sure and who want it analysed. For us, that opening is perfect information since we know we have the information necessary to deduce the result with best play by both sides. For them, the information they're given isn't enough, so it isn't perfect.

... + much drivel

If that was your attempt at doing what I suggested in #10441 I'll score it at δ- (but only because we're friends).

tygxc

@10443

"Draughts (checkers) is analysed and understood, so it's a GOPI."
++ Checkers (8*8) was a game of perfect information, even before Schaeffer weakly solved it.
Draughts (10*10) is not yet weakly solved, but is a game of perfect information.
Go is also a game of perfect information, though further from being solved than Chess.

"it's looking very bad for white but there's a chance that the game can be saved"
++ A position is either a draw, a white win, or a black win. There is no chance involved.

"it would be possible at least to calculate the result"
++ It is possible to calculate the result, if enough engine time is available.

"chess is too complex a game for the normal definition of "perfect informtion" to hold"
++ Chess is a game of perfect information, just like Checkers, Go, Nine Men's Morris, Connect Four... and unlike Bridge, Poker, Dominoes, Backgammon, Stratego...

"You place great store in definitions"
++ Definitions are to facilitate communication, to ensure everybody is talking about the same.

"their ideas are inapplicable to solving chess"
++ The ideas are applicable to Chess just like to Checkers, or Go.

"Elroch used an incorrect argument against it, by comparing it with coin tosses."
++ He still has to submit his bet that at least one of the 30 ongoing ICCF WC Finals games will end decisively given 106 ended in draws.

"playing GM games with computer aid at 5 days per move is a very good method"
++ A priori not: there used to be many decisive games in previous years,
every year fewer, now none.

"it's still undertaken on a random basis" ++ There is no randomness.

"mathematics purists dislike it" ++ Purism produces no results.

"A full game tree (strong solution) is not viable" ++ The ICCF WC Finals provide a game tree.

"algorithms that can analyse positions more exactly than before"
++ There is no such algorithm, except calculating until the 7-men endgame table base or a prior 3-fold repetition. That is also what Schaeffer did for Checkers.

tygxc

@10448

"Nobody has ever agreed with your 10^17"
++ I tried to explain as clearly as I could. If people fail to understand, it is not my fault.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@10448

"Nobody has ever agreed with your 10^17"
++ I tried to explain as clearly as I could. If people fail to understand, it is not my fault.

Yes it is. Your explanation is farcical. Only a half-wit could possibly understand.

MARattigan

@Optimissed No, you're talking about the poster above.

Elroch
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@10448

"Nobody has ever agreed with your 10^17"
++ I tried to explain as clearly as I could. If people fail to understand, it is not my fault.

Yes it is. Your explanation is farcical. Only a half-wit could possibly understand.

It merely requires complete lack of understanding of what solving chess means. For example if someone said that 3 drawn games between computers proves that the French defense is a draw, (as @tygxc has) you can be 100% sure he has no idea what a proof is.

DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

@10448

"Nobody has ever agreed with your 10^17"
++ I tried to explain as clearly as I could. If people fail to understand, it is not my fault.

It is, when your premise has multiple fatal flaws that have been pointed out to you many, many times in plain language.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
tygxc wrote:

"Nobody has ever agreed with your 10^17"
++ I tried to explain as clearly as I could. If people fail to understand, it is not my fault.

I trusted the mathematicians back then and disbelieved you. Now I don't so if you can find the explanation I'll read it again. You may have quick access to it, rather than me looking for an hour.

I trust most posters can see the futility of listening to someone that keeps changing their mind based on how much he dislikes his opposition.

Elroch

Exactly.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

the terms of "ultra weakly solved, weakly solved, strongly solved" are all well defined and require rigorous proof. most of the disagreement comes from the fact that people do not understand the terms properly, or do not understand the rigor required for the proof.

The terms were introduced by games theorists. They have no connection to "solving chess" since the so-called strong solution is known to be impossible, so what are you talking about?

You can't prove a definition, by the way. A definition is a descriptive meaning that is applied to a name.

This sounds like you think the relevant meaning is the vague imprecise one in common English (where words are defined based on other words which very often have imprecise meanings themselves). It is not. The relevant meaning is that of a definition in the mathematical sciences, based on axioms and other definitions that could in principle be processed by a computer in the same way as they are by a human reasoning about the subject.

A definition is an unambiguous description of an abstract entity (or property of such entities, etc.) that could in principle be implemented in a computer with complete clarity.

If you keep listening to Elroch, you are not going to learn a thing.

Says the guy who has failed to repair such failings in his own understanding.

MARattigan

I think it's perfectly true that if @Optimissed keeps listening to @Elroch he's not going to learn a thing. But @Elroch is in no way special in that respect.

(@Optimissed would no doubt argue that's because he knows everything already.)

ardutgamersus

what kinda beef is going on here

MEGACHE3SE
ardutgamersus wrote:

what kinda beef is going on here

basically, its 3-4 normal people (me, elroch, MAR, and the occasional fourth person), trying to get a pseudo-troll (optimissed) and a guy who doesnt understand logic (tygxc) to shut up.

ardutgamersus

W topic, i support you