Chess will never be solved, here's why

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BigChessplayer665
ardutgamersus wrote:

nah bro tygxc is downvoting all of your comments lol 💀

Yes the down votes don't even matter I only down vote when I see a bunch cause I like seeing numbers go up

DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

"I got 35 from here" ++ Yes, that 35 are the also mentioned 31 may be plausible,
but does not take transpositions into account.
It often happens that moves A and B are available, but at the next moves AB or BA are available, collapsing to the same position.
A position should be considered once only, regardless of how it was reached.
Transpositions are no exception, but the rule.
10^38 = 31^25
With a non transposing branching factor of 31 all chess games would be over in 13 moves.
There can be no more chess positions than there are chess positions.
That is the pigeonhole principle

It's funny how quickly you go from "Chess has branching factor of 35? Where did you get that from?" to "Yes, chess has a branching factor from 31 to 35, but [blah blah blah...]". You routinely get caught out in these types of mistakes, and then have to rapidly integrate them into your narrative.

Bringing up the pigeonhole principle as if it somehow cements your new rationalization is like adding "...and remember, ice is cold" to the end of an argument about glaciers melting...it only impresses the children in the audience that don't know any better and will happily accept anything written at a certain level of vocabulary.

You can either evaluate the pigeonhole boxes standalone, going backwards from mate, or going in a forward direction, you can evaluate them, but only with information in hand that you don't have until you can perfectly evaluate a single position (and that perfection going backwards from mate is why tablebases are created that way, such perfection of single position evaluations does not exist in the opening or middlegame). Whether AB or BA are actually identical in result is not something you can determine without calculation. If you are calculating to determine whether a transposition is actually the same in either order, then you are not actually working with 10^44, you are working with the larger game tree. Move order matters...ask any super GM that has forgotten their prep...

Here's where I think your fundamental mistakes lie...at each step of your reductions in magnitude, you double, triple, and possibly quadruple count the elimination of positions. 10^44 already is a reduction to *unique positions only*. Saying that you can take another square root out of that number (or worse, from your dubious 10^34 which is where the triple and quadruple counting occurs) because of transpositions is incorrect, because there are no transpositions in a set of unique positions...they were already eliminated to reach the set of unique positions. Your argument tries to apply it's largest reduction twice and then toss in some vague fuzzy reductions on top, all to get you to the 10^17 number you had in mind before you started. That's the opposite of the scientific method, cherry picking and fudging numbers/results to fit your hypothesis.

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

u guys are tryn2 completely describe chess. u approaching it WRONG. know why ?...cuz AIs gonna remove the need to. s/t in the future ur gonna hafta accept that not EVERY position will need a full eval. ur tiny mind is looking 4a solution from what u know (iows the past). u needta take urself beyond that. i know thats hard for those w/a lactose backbone. dont be one a them.

u can thank the sci-fi renaissance for where were at today. isnt this fun ?!

So sayeth the lady who still keeps trying to mine cryptocurrency as if it had any objective value.

Pretty sure there are several posters here who know a lot more about AI's potential than you do...myself being one of them.

MEGACHE3SE
DiogenesDue wrote:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

u guys are tryn2 completely describe chess. u approaching it WRONG. know why ?...cuz AIs gonna remove the need to. s/t in the future ur gonna hafta accept that not EVERY position will need a full eval. ur tiny mind is looking 4a solution from what u know (iows the past). u needta take urself beyond that. i know thats hard for those w/a lactose backbone. dont be one a them.

u can thank the sci-fi renaissance for where were at today. isnt this fun ?!

So sayeth the lady who still keeps trying to mine cryptocurrency as if it had any objective value.

Pretty sure there are several posters here who know a lot more about AI's potential than you do...myself being one of them.

the harm that those posts could cause pales compared to tygxc's and optimissed's misinformation

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

myself being one of them

trust me. ur dummer than AI. & u know it.

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

myself being one of them

trust me. ur dummer than AI. & u know it.

That statement doesn't follow since you are actually the one being compared to, not AI...but what it does imply is that I was right, because I'm not "dummer" enough to make the mistake you just did.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

u just need opti back so u can pick on s/o. and ty for re: that crypto thingy from so long ago. wow lol ! why doncha go obsess on s/o else...plz ?

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

u just need opti back so u can pick on s/o. and ty for re: that crypto thingy from so long ago. wow lol ! why doncha go obsess on s/o else...plz ?

It's not that long ago, and the obsession was yours, which is why I remember it easily. You're acting like I never refuted your assertions while also handling Optimissed's. I'm an equal opportunity crackpot-buster.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

lol !! are u thru dopey ?

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

burst !

DiogenesDue
Luke-Jaywalker wrote:

he loves winning arguments inside his head.

its what gives him the buzz he needs to start every day as an adventure

At least I actually engage in discussions...the two of you just take potshots from the sidelines offering nothing, knowing you will get yourselves in trouble in a head-ups debate. It's been a decade and nothing much has changed.

You'll always be the serial sockpuppeteer stirring up drama for fun, and Lola will always be playing the kooky-but-cute role looking for male validation from the wrong source.

It's almost poignant and nostalgic...but not quite. Sorry for the blunt assessment of reality.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

blah blah blah...quite overanalyzing milk toast

AyusGiri

Hello

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

blah blah blah...quite overanalyzing milk toast

That would be "quit" and "milquetoast". The latter term comes from a fictional character from the Sunday comics. If by "overanalyzing" you mean that my observations/points are more accurate...well, that tracks with this exchange right here.

You two both like to take potshots, but don't seem to like anything coming back your way.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

That would be "quit" and "milquetoast". The latter term comes from a fictional character from the Sunday comics. If by "overanalyzing" you mean that my observations/points are more accurate...well, that tracks with this exchange right here.

ok fine ur the smartest person in the world...now woodja *hut up already ? lol !

* > s

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

That would be "quit" and "milquetoast". The latter term comes from a fictional character from the Sunday comics. If by "overanalyzing" you mean that my observations/points are more accurate...well, that tracks with this exchange right here.

ok fine ur the smartest person in the world...now woodja *hut up already ? lol !

* > s

I do not claim to be smarter than everybody around me. You're thinking of someone else. Have a good weekend.

Elroch
DiogenesDue wrote:
tygxc wrote:

"an assumption that cannot be proven about underpromotions not being relevant"
++ Underpromotions to rook or bishop only make sense to avoid a draw by stalemate.
That could make sense for one side, but not for both sides.
In the perfect games we have, some promotions to a 3rd and/or 4th queen occur, but promotions to a 3rd knight, bishop, or rook do not occur. If underpromotion were limited to pieces previously captured, then all games would be the same.

"This previous step takes a 0.001% bite"
++ 1 in 10,000 is 0.01%. Tromp conjectured it to be only 1 in 10^6 i.e. 0.0001%.

"Not proven to be possible for chess as of yet, but true for checkers" ++ Alpha-Beta search is a universal method to prune search trees and does not depend on the game.

"The two 10^17 numbers represent entirely different things"
++ Yes, one is the number of positions to be considered to weakly solve Chess and the other is the number of positions actually considered during the ongoing ICCF WC Finals.
That they turn out the same shows that the effort is commensurate with the required effort.

Alpha Beta pruning *when optimal* can effectively reduce the game tree complexity to its square root. Checkers has an average branching factor of 10, chess has an average branching factor of 35. In order to achieve optimal pruning, the branching moves must be evaluated in the best possible order. This means that the best moves are to be considered first.

Slight problem: you have no way of ordering the average 35 moves perfectly (and, as you might imagine, ordering 35 in a more complex game correctly would be a very tall order compared to ordering 10 in a much simpler game), only via a vague approximation based on human and engine-derived valuations. So, I will maintain that it is not at all proven to be possible to achieve the 17 orders of magnitude downward leap you are positing.

The only value of ordering the moves to a solution of chess is selecting the sole move to be played in a strategy. It leaves the roughly 35 moves for the other side to play. 35^13.

By chance, log10(35^11) = 10^17 (near as damn it). Which only has value to emphasise the absurdity of tygxc's claims.

My best guess is that you need about 10^30 positions for a weak solution of chess. The rule set does not matter much, since both strategies have a side playing optimally (so you don't get silly examples where the dumb route that has been taken to a position lowers the value of the position. Optimal players can avoid double repetitions when winning and are happy with draws the rest of the time.

playerafar
DiogenesDue wrote:
tygxc wrote:

"an assumption that cannot be proven about underpromotions not being relevant"
++ Underpromotions to rook or bishop only make sense to avoid a draw by stalemate.
That could make sense for one side, but not for both sides.
In the perfect games we have, some promotions to a 3rd and/or 4th queen occur, but promotions to a 3rd knight, bishop, or rook do not occur. If underpromotion were limited to pieces previously captured, then all games would be the same.

"This previous step takes a 0.001% bite"
++ 1 in 10,000 is 0.01%. Tromp conjectured it to be only 1 in 10^6 i.e. 0.0001%.

"Not proven to be possible for chess as of yet, but true for checkers" ++ Alpha-Beta search is a universal method to prune search trees and does not depend on the game.

"The two 10^17 numbers represent entirely different things"
++ Yes, one is the number of positions to be considered to weakly solve Chess and the other is the number of positions actually considered during the ongoing ICCF WC Finals.
That they turn out the same shows that the effort is commensurate with the required effort.

Alpha Beta pruning *when optimal* can effectively reduce the game tree complexity to its square root. Checkers has an average branching factor of 10, chess has an average branching factor of 35. In order to achieve optimal pruning, the branching moves must be evaluated in the best possible order. This means that the best moves are to be considered first.

Slight problem: you have no way of ordering the average 35 moves perfectly (and, as you might imagine, ordering 35 in a more complex game correctly would be a very tall order compared to ordering 10 in a much simpler game), only via a vague approximation based on human and engine-derived valuations. So, I will maintain that it is not at all proven to be possible to achieve the 17 orders of magnitude downward leap you are positing.

Game tree - versus number of positions 'tree'.
Whether going from the back (endgame tablebases) with 'positions'
or going from the front (the opening position with 32 pieces) with 'games' as opposed to positions - either way the numbers get prohibitive kind of quickly.
Prohibitively large.
-------------------------
I don't know if its been done in the forum yet - 
but with enough 'cheating approximation' - chess would not only be very quickly 'weakly' solved ... but there could be a new method to do that both weakly and weekly.
Maybe that's been done many times ...
Limit each side to just two optimal options each - at every point.
How many games would there be? How many possible positions?
tygxc would have the data perchance.
-----------------------------------------------
Then try three options each.
If tygxc could refrain from using 'nodes per second' and make his arguments with 'computer operations per second' instead ... then he might really be able to present something 'good'.
Like where is the cutoff where the number of options that actually produce further variations to be considered - becomes prohibitive?
Five each?
-----------------------------
Note that chess software has to 'prune' the variations it will consider.
How many moves can it 'brute force' ahead? (all legal options considered and their resulting variations)
And even there - evaluations will not be perfect.

playerafar

Note that chess software has to 'prune' the variations it will consider.
Game software. As opposed to 'project' software.
Stockfish or whatever.
It has to prune it. Anyway.
Programmers probably have to face that constantly.
'hey we want a strong engine but we're not trying to 'solve' chess. Not even 'weakly'.'

MEGACHE3SE
playerafar wrote:

Note that chess software has to 'prune' the variations it will consider.
Game software. As opposed to 'project' software.
Stockfish or whatever.
It has to prune it. Anyway.
Programmers probably have to face that constantly.
'hey we want a strong engine but we're not trying to 'solve' chess. Not even 'weakly'.'

yeah tygxc's 10^17 argument assumes that it's already pre pruned LOL. even though such a pruning would already be enough to weakly solve.