Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Elroch
tygxc wrote:

@12647

"I am aware of two examples from master praxis where an underpromotion to bishop was the only winning move." ++ So that makes 1 position in 10^6 games.
Now of how many examples from master praxis are you aware where a pawn promoted and both bishops were still on the board? ++ That is maybe also 1 position in 10^6 games.

Guessing - your modus operandi - is not good enough. This is a very reckless guess, without even shoddy reasoning behind it.That gives 1 position in 10^17 positions.

Based on a made up number, so worthless.

To estimate the number of relevant positions to weakly solve Chess (10^17)

Another made-up number where the reasoning never came close to making sense.

that is negligible indeed.

As well as guessing, you are indeed big on neglecting things.

"So it suffices to generate drawing strategies for the similar game to chess where underpromotions to bishop and rook are forbidden" ++ No they are allowed, but underpromotions to pieces not previously captured not.

Now try reading what I wrote. I referred to generating drawing strategies for a MODIFIED game where underpromotions to bishop and rook are forbidden. These strategies would do for chess as well due to my valid reasoning. You should be pleased with this!

"The number of legal chess positions without ANY promotion is around 4 x 10^37."
++ Correction: without any promotion to a piece not previously captured.

No. My statement is true AND your statement is also true. They are the SAME set of positions.

For brevity the article title does not mention that, but it is obvious. Yes, to everyone.

"strongly believed that chess is a draw" ++ To me it is proven.

That is because, as has been widely observed, you don't know what a proof is (a key piece of knowledge early in a mathematical education).

"It's safe to say chess still can't be rigorously solved."
++ No, on the contrary it is safe to say chess can be rigourously weakly solved.
The 17 ICCF WC Finalist and their servers are doing it now.
110 games out of 110 that redundantly link the initial position in average 39 moves to certain draws.

You are remarkably clueless about what a weak solution is: it involves generating a complete proof tree. In a proof tree not a single legal move for the opposition is left unanalysed. Ponder on that a while.

Essential reading about the definition of proof tree (it applies to all of mathematics, not just weak solutions of games), In the weak solution of games the key step is that the game theoretic value (W/D/L) of a position is the maximum of the game theoretic values of the positions reachable by a legal move from that position. 

And of course, you have no understanding of what rigor is. It's a shame this will never be fixed.

"Today's top chess engines will probably lose matches to those of the future."
++ At short time control. In TCEC they have to impose 50 unbalanced openings to avoid all draws and they do hit the 7-men endgame table base.

Current chess engines beat those of only a short time in the past in some games. It is absurd to suggest this must be over. The ICCF is a competition between Stockfish 16 and itself running on high end hardware. Even using significantly inferior hardware is enough to lose games. There is no reason to believe Stockfish 16 is invincible, just that there is nothing to beat it right now. Stockfish 17 will come, I assure you!

MaetsNori
tygxc wrote:

... each year there were fewer and fewer decisive games in the ICCF World Championship Finals and now there are none.

The thing is, this can have multiple causes.

The conclusion of "Therefore, we have reached perfect play, or close to it" (or some similar conclusion) isn't the only conclusion we can draw from the results.

Some other possible conclusions:

Possibility 1: Previous ICCF championships may have had greater disparities between competitors, in terms of hardware and software being used, and/or being available - thus leading to differences in playing strength among the competitors.

Possibility 2: ICCF competitors may have believed, in past years, that their human decisions were more valuable - thus they may have made more human choices in their games. But as the strength of engines took a large leap forward in recent years (due to AlphaZero's rise and the community acceptance of NNUE, for example), ICCF players may have learned to trust their hardware and software more, and to rely on their human input less and less - thus leading to a greater amount of draws, due to competitors all pitting the same hardware/software against each other with minimized human interference.

Possibility 3: ICCF players may have learned to embrace less volatile openings/defenses and have thus narrowed their repertoires to the safest options, to minimize their chances of losing ... resulting in a greater number of draws.

... We can consider more possibilities as well, if we just sit and think about it. And this is one of the necessary steps to avoid leaps in logic - we have to consider other possibilities and examine them accordingly ...

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

tygxc...i dont see any hard #'s coming from ur naysayers. do u ?...let alone a way to get there. they attack u but wheres THEIR answers ?...see ?...they wouldnt even know where to start in dev'ing the sw.

MaetsNori
llama_l wrote:
tygxc wrote:

I am certain chess is a draw with optimal play, and I have justification.

I (and nearly everyone who plays chess) assumes chess is a draw with best play, and they can give reasonable arguments for that.

True. It should, of course, be a draw, due to how symmetrical the starting position is.

Even in 960, the two sides mirror each other.

This is why I've thought it would be far more interesting for a chess variant where each color has their starting position randomized (just as in Fischer Random) ... but each color's arrangement is independent of the other.

So we might have a starting position like this:

Then the players begin.

To make it fair, games are played in pairs, like in the TCEC - where the same setup is used for the next game, but the players switch sides ...

This would certainly reduce the number of draws, I believe ... and would make memorization and theory virtually irrelevant.

I'm sure others have thought of this (or a similar idea) as well ...

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

tygxc...i dont see any hard #'s coming from ur naysayers. do u ?...let alone a way to get there. they attack u but wheres THEIR answers ?...see ?...they wouldnt even know where to start in dev'ing the sw.

There's only one hard number in Tygxc's parade of premises...10^44, which is the same "hard number" everyone is using. Since the real answer is "there is no answer, nor one forthcoming anytime soon", your last point is meaningless.

DiogenesDue
MaetsNori wrote:

True. It should, of course, be a draw, due to how symmetrical the starting position is.

Even in 960, the two sides mirror each other.

This is why I've thought it would be far more interesting for a chess variant where each color has their starting position randomized (just as in Fischer Random) ... but each color's arrangement is independent of the other.

So we might have a starting position like this:

Then the players begin.

To make it fair, games are played in pairs, like in the TCEC - where the same setup is used for the next game, but the players switch sides ...

This would certainly reduce the number of draws, I believe ... and would make memorization and theory virtually irrelevant.

I'm sure others have thought of this (or a similar idea) as well ...

I have no issue with your premise. You should fix your example position, though...read up on king and rook placement for Chess960.

MaetsNori
DiogenesDue wrote:

I have no issue with your premise. You should fix your example position, though...read up on king and rook placement for Chess960.

Ah, thanks for the guidance. I had to look it up.

Elroch
MaetsNori wrote:
llama_l wrote:
tygxc wrote:

I am certain chess is a draw with optimal play, and I have justification.

I (and nearly everyone who plays chess) assumes chess is a draw with best play, and they can give reasonable arguments for that.

True. It should, of course, be a draw, due to how symmetrical the starting position is.

Not at all a good reason. And it's not symmetrical! White has the move. There are many games which are as symmetrical (in the loose sense) but which are won by one side. For example, Nim with any set of sizes to start. In this game, the first player wins in most starting positions and the second player wins in a subset of positions with a special property.

Even in 960, the two sides mirror each other.

This is why I've thought it would be far more interesting for a chess variant where each color has their starting position randomized (just as in Fischer Random) ... but each color's arrangement is independent of the other.

Have you not heard that this is one of the more popular alternative variants?

This would certainly reduce the number of draws, I believe ... and would make memorization and theory virtually irrelevant.

Chess960 is plenty adequate for that. You only see the same starting position in 1 in 960 games, so learning a bit of theory about each is probably already scarcely possible!

I'm sure others have thought of this (or a similar idea) as well ...

Good guess!

tygxc

@12647

"Guessing is not good enough." ++ OK, then please take a games data base and tell how many underpromotions, promotions to pieces not previously captured, and underpromotions to pieces not previously captured you can find.

"I referred to generating drawing strategies for a MODIFIED game where underpromotions to bishop and rook are forbidden." ++ That is too restrictive: what I talk about is a modified game where underpromotions to pieces not previously captured are forbidden.

"My statement is true"
++ No 4*10^37 refers to no promotions to pieces not previously captured.

"a weak solution is: it involves generating a complete proof tree."
++ Not necessarily. Counterexample: Allis' weak solution of Connect Four.

"In a proof tree not a single legal move for the opposition is left unanalysed."
++ That is your opinion/interpretation. Mine is that 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? and 1 a4 can be pruned.

"the game theoretic value (W/D/L) of a position is the maximum of the game theoretic values of the positions reachable by a legal move from that position."
++ The game-theoretic value of the positions reachable by 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? is lower than those reachable by 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3. The game-theoretic value of positions reachable by 1 a4 cannot be higher than those reachable by 1 e4.

"Current chess engines beat those of only a short time in the past in some games."
++ In short time controls, not in 5 days/move.

"The ICCF is a competition between Stockfish 16 and itself running on high end hardware."
++ No. you have no clue about correspondence chess.
The humans make the difference, not their engines.

tygxc

@12648

"Previous ICCF championships may have had greater disparities between competitors"
++ They had the same cycle of qualifiers.

"ICCF players may have learned to trust their hardware and software more"
++ That is not how correspondence works. The humans trust their engines on tactics, but take care of strategy beyond the horizon of the engines.
'How many ideas can you interactively throw at the computer in one hour is the key question'
Interview with 2 times ICCF World Champion Langeveld

"competitors all pitting the same hardware/software against each other with minimized human interference" ++ No, then they would not win qualifiers.

"ICCF players may have learned to embrace less volatile openings/defenses and have thus narrowed their repertoires to the safest options"
++ No they play risky stuff, like the Catalan, the Najdorf, the Grünfeld, Nimzovich Indian.

playerafar

tygxc would appear to be disagreeing with others what 'weakly solved' is.
As I've said - that terminology is the gremlin at the center of his invalid proposals.

MaetsNori
tygxc wrote:

"ICCF players may have learned to trust their hardware and software more"
++ That is not how correspondence works. The humans trust their engines on tactics, but take care of strategy beyond the horizon of the engines.
'How many ideas can you interactively throw at the computer in one hour is the key question'
Interview with 2 times ICCF World Champion Langeveld

This was an interesting interview, I appreciate the link.

I especially found this part noteworthy: "Ideas need to be created behind the board and then have them refuted by the computer until you find an idea that sticks and makes the difference."

So I'm getting a mental image of an ICCF player asking their engine(s), "Does this work? No? How about this? No? ... Maybe this? No? ... Hmm, what about this? Maybe? Okay, let's analyze this further ..."

If so, that sounds quite a lot, to me, like "trusting their hardware/software". Engine-assisted trial and error, at least ... Perhaps ICCF players aren't following their hardware/software blindly (and credit to them, for that!) - but they certainly sound reliant on it.

This is quite a different approach from a top OTB player (Carlsen, for example), who may glance at an engine line for a brief amount of time, tell his seconds, "I get the idea", then trust in himself to navigate the game from there, should it arise on the board ...

An ICCF player, apparently, does the near-opposite: comes up with some ideas, then trusts in the engine to navigate the game, from there ...

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

10^44, which is the same "hard number" everyone is using.

then prove its right or wrong. insteada just talking & not doing.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

ohh and btw ?...already know u couldnt show us what u have...cuz u have n/t to show lol ! u probably couldnt even write hello world in basic burst !

tygxc

@12657

"what weakly solved is"
++ Again:
'weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition' Games solved: Now and in the future

There is a different interpretation about what 'any opposition' means. Elroch thinks it is all legal moves. I say all legal moves that oppose, i.e. strive against achieving the game-theoretic value.

There is a different interpretation about what 'a strategy' means. Elroch thinks only about a brute force method. As per the above paper I also think about knowledge based methods, like Allis' weak solution of Connect Four

tygxc

@12661

"Carlsen plays OTB, where practical elements matter."
++ Even in correspondence practical elements matter. Sometimes they get into time trouble. They have 50 days per 10 moves, but sometimes they use all of it and then must reply the same day for some moves. Sometimes ICCF games get lost by clerical errors: they play the move they planned ahead for the next move. There are also other human elements like illness. They may also experience computer crashes or power blackouts.

MaetsNori
llama_l wrote:

Eh, that's a bit too weird for my taste. IIRC in a recent top level 960 event some of the top players had a bad / lost position before move 5... so I don't think we need to mix it up even more.

The Casablanca thing (?) I think they called it, (and not that's not a typo) had them starting from historical middlegame positions, that was a neat idea.

Yes, perhaps 960 is already difficult enough.

Also I agree, the Casablanca tournament was quite interesting. Though I found myself wondering why they had 3 Supers and one 2600 ... Seemed a little out of place.

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

ohh and btw ?...already know u couldnt show us what u have...cuz u have n/t to show lol ! u probably couldnt even write hello world in basic burst !

[and]

10^44, which is the same "hard number" everyone is using.

then prove its right or wrong. insteada just talking & not doing.

I can write a "hello world" program in assembly language, C++/C#/C, SQL (Oracle or SQL Server), Ruby on Rails, Python, Java, Javascript, PHP(LAMP), Perl, PAL, Unix shell script, batch files...and Basic. I could make it client/server using AJAX or Django.

I could dig out old textbooks and write "hello world" programs in COBOL and Pascal, too, I guess, if I had any motivation to do so.

I can also *build* worlds using the Doom or Quake engines, Neverwinter Nights, etc. and have in-game NPCs say "hello world" if it came to that.

In any case, you haven't been paying much attention...I have my own thread where this question was pretty much laid to rest, so why would I rehash everything over and over again on a thread that should have died long ago?

chessplayerfootballplayer

OHH'

QSO67

"Once chess solver, always cheater." wink.png