Hey shig - tygxc doesn't have to shut up.
What are you doing here?
Chess will never be solved, here's why
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Jun 23, 2024
0
#9623
playerafar wrote:
Hey shig - tygxc doesn't have to shut up.
What are you doing here?
tbf it would be highly beneficial to all parties involved if tygxc DID shut up.
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9624
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
playerafar wrote:
Hey shig - tygxc doesn't have to shut up.
What are you doing here?
tbf it would be highly beneficial to all parties involved if tygxc DID shut up.
I think its more beneficial if Optimissed shuts up.
Which is he is doing for the time being.
And voluntarily this time instead of the chess.com staff shutting him up for him.
--------------------
MEGA if you're arguing that its better if tygxc shuts up - in order that not so much effort has to be invested to interfere with his disinformation ...
Is that it?
Anyway if that is what it is - well I would add that its not all bad.
tygxc is - in my humble opinion - causing informed educated people using logic - to make their posts accordingly here.
O has shut up for now because he's fragile and delicate.
But I don't think tygxc will be shut up.
He has other plans it seems.
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9625
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
playerafar wrote:
Hey shig - tygxc doesn't have to shut up.
What are you doing here?
tbf it would be highly beneficial to all parties involved if tygxc DID shut up.
MEGA - have you noticed that nobody ever agrees with tygxc?
Hahahahaahahahah.
But he's not afraid.
Foolhardiness is not a virtue.
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9627
tygxc wrote:
@12768
"The positions with 9 or more positions are similar in number to those with 8 or fewer."
++ No. 19201527561695835455154058755564594798074 / 8726713169886222032347729969256422370854716254 = 2.2*10^-6.
NO!
I am not sure if this was a deliberate deception or a blunder, but here you have divided the number of positions with 0 promotions by those with 9 promotions, which is of course not relevant to what I said.
Positions with 9 promotions to pieces not previously captured make up 22.7%.
Which undelines what I said.
"Faulty premises give faulty conclusions." ++ Valid premises give right conclusions.
Only when combined with valid reasoning. You fail really badly at the latter.
"chess variants where pawns cannot advance passed the seventh rank" ++ Cannot you read? 'Without promotion' is short for 'without promotion to a piece not previously captured'.
Which is NOT a rule in chess, except maybe among beginners who think that if a piece is not in the box you can't promote to it. The same set of positions is only relevant for such chess variants, not for chess.
Promotion to a piece not previously captured happens in maybe 1 game in 100, or 1 position in 1000.
So you are trying to find a 99% correct solution of chess now?
"the game starts with fewer queens than pawns"
++ But for a pawn to reach the 8th rank at least one capture is necessary.
True and not exactly news.Of course promotions happen,
but by the time promotion happens usually the desired queen is already captured.
So? You seem to think "usually" is a valid step in logical argument.Even more in the rare case of underpromotion, as there are 2 rooks, bishops, and knights and usually at least one of those is captured by the time a pawn promotes.
"usually"
"You didn't even do a dodgy calculation for that did you?"
++ Multiplying by 10 for something rare like 1 game in 100 or 1 position in 1000 is generous.
Another irrelevant guess that can't be used in valid reasoning.
"About 5000 positions?" ++ 8720 resulting from considering 10^17 positions.
From doing inconclusive analysis on all of those early in the game.
"no weak solution contains 1. d4 Nf6, 1. d4 d5, 1. e4 c5 and 1. e4 e5"
++ Those are 4 weak solutions:
You need to learn what a weak solution is. 7 positions is not a weak solution. A tree of 10^30 positions might be.
- 1 d4 d5 and 1 e4 e5,
- 1 d4 Nf6 and 1 e4 c5,
- 1 d4 d5 and 1 e4 c5,
- 1 d4 Nf6 and 1 e4 e5.
If a pair of errors were found in 1 e4 e5, then 1 e4 c5 is available as a backup and vice versa.
If a pair of errors were found in 1 d4 d5, then 1 d4 Nf6 is available as a backup and vice versa.
The redundancy is unnecessary, but makes the weak solution fail safe against possible errors.
Hilarious!
There are the numbers you copied and pasted earlier:
tygxc wrote:
Per Tromp the breakdown of raw position count before legality check is:
promotions: 0 positions: 19201527561695835455154058755564594798074
promotions: 1 positions: 382355871178268365234183218244670372695068
promotions: 2 positions: 3666683498600457464891752992187014354136188
promotions: 3 positions: 22267499667290257736558400874926183060238400
promotions: 4 positions: 95095065373967146179514528215894174339720228
promotions: 5 positions: 300571414300527313744528888013946849776424304
promotions: 6 positions: 721668497316402902485416452421325823057710432
promotions: 7 positions: 1329934072135692805837128923570048899100334756
promotions: 8 positions: 1874962044164806332602085236357597905810647344
promotions: 9 positions: 1980800128935921108339671872170042183548439128
promotions: 10 positions: 1492529839915108301878747832838229979840571492
promotions: 11 positions: 722080907452760073481816196266539169729817880
promotions: 12 positions: 175351843526979273665005184194531833618491680
promotions: 13 positions: 7338473695924787177946719990630518998574920
promotions: 14 positions: 45087168602668580254351850721788483191140
promotions: 15 positions: 55323182237139471340692375109727946960
promotions: 16 positions: 11716401834002951530424702440978260
Total: 8726713169886222032347729969256422370854716254
This is consistent with your quote from me at the top of this post and inconsistent with your denial.
Hint: try to do things right rather than doing things to support a wrong position.
@12796
You are really bad at understanding.
Positions with 0 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 2.20031610846976E-06
Positions with 1 promotion to a piece not previously captured: 4.38144194423264E-05
Positions with 2 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.000420167757003094
Positions with 3 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.00255164793821
Positions with 4 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0108970082461421
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0344426828806207
Positions with 6 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0826964841478584
Positions with 7 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.152398050244733
Positions with 8 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.214853176409515
Positions with 9 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.226981234558182
Positions with 10 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.171030009908595
Positions with 11 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0827437425059972
Positions with 12 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0200936870633122
Positions with 13 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.000840920694087676
Positions with 14 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 5.16656932855929E-06
Positions with 15 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 6.3395210957599E-09
Positions with 16 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 1.34259045827625E-12
Total Tromp positions : 1
"if a piece is not in the box you can't promote to it"
++ That is what Gourion counted: his 10^37.
This represents 2.20031610846976E-06 of the 10^44 Tromp positions.
That is what happens in the vast majority of master games or ICCF games.
If a promotion to a piece not previously captured happens in a master or ICCF game, then to a queen.
If an underpromotion happens in a master or ICCF game, then the piece already is in the box.
That is why 10^38 is a better starting position than either 10^44 or 10^37.
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9630
Not surprising. What does 0.0344426828806207 of a position look like?
Most people are really bad at understanding sh*te.
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9631
tygxc wrote:
@12796
You are really bad at understanding.
Positions with 0 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 2.20031610846976E-06
Positions with 1 promotion to a piece not previously captured: 4.38144194423264E-05
Positions with 2 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.000420167757003094
Positions with 3 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.00255164793821
Positions with 4 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0108970082461421
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0344426828806207
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured:
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured:
Those numbers each look much too small.
@12799
"What does 0.0344426828806207 of a position look like?"
++ 0.0344426828806207 of the total number of legal positions, i.e. 3.4%
@12796
"A tree of 10^30 positions might be"
++ We now have a tree. The root is the initial position. After average 39*2 nodes we reach 112 leaves, all certain draws. This tree is pruned out of a denser tree with 10^17 nodes.
chess may never be solved but someone will eat a chess piece
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9636
tygxc wrote:
@12799
"What does 0.0344426828806207 of a position look like?"
++ 0.0344426828806207 of the total number of legal positions, i.e. 3.4%
Which might be what you meant but not what you said.
What you (originally) said was just:
You are really bad at understanding.
Positions with 0 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 2.20031610846976E-06
Positions with 1 promotion to a piece not previously captured: 4.38144194423264E-05
Positions with 2 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.000420167757003094
Positions with 3 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.00255164793821
Positions with 4 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0108970082461421
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0344426828806207
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured:
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured:
@12805
Again, for clarity:
Positions with 0 promotion to a piece not previously captured: 0.0002200316%
Positions with 1 promotion to a piece not previously captured: 0.0043814419%
Positions with 2 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0420167757%
Positions with 3 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.2551647938%
Positions with 4 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 1.0897008246%
Positions with 5 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 3.4442682881%
Positions with 6 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 8.2696484148%
Positions with 7 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 15.2398050245%
Positions with 8 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 21.4853176410%
Positions with 9 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 22.6981234558%
Positions with 10 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 17.1030009909%
Positions with 11 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 8.2743742506%
Positions with 12 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 2.0093687063%
Positions with 13 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0840920694%
Positions with 14 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0005166569%
Positions with 15 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0000006340%
Positions with 16 promotions to pieces not previously captured: 0.0000000001%
Total legal positions per Tromp: 100%
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9638
tygxc wrote:
@12796
You are really bad at understanding.
LOL
"if a piece is not in the box you can't promote to it"
++ That is what Gourion counted: his 10^37
So? You need to learn to read. In my previous post I explained that the set of positions without promotion is only relevant to solving chess variants,
This represents 2.20031610846976E-06 of the 10^44 Tromp positions.
That is what happens in the vast majority of master games or ICCF games.
No, actually. Over 1% of master games are not so. And you cannot deduce from this that ANY legal chess positions are not needed for weak solution of the game.
In fact you could not deduce that ANY legal chess positions are not needed for a weak solution of chess if an oracle told you that only 1 in a million optimal chess games has a non-Gourion position (itself an absurd fiction, but one that would be more relevant).
If a promotion to a piece not previously captured happens in a master or ICCF game, then to a queen.
If an underpromotion happens in a master or ICCF game, then the piece already is in the box.
That is why 10^38 is a better starting position than either 10^44 or 10^37.
If repeating the same mistakes is a valid form of reasoning you are doing great.
Otherwise, you should learn how to read, so that you can find from earlier posts that:
- The set of positions without promotions is woefully inadequate for solving chess. (Exactly like your skillset).
- That "usually" is not a valid step in reasoning.
- That 1 in a million legal chess positions is of the order of 10^38 positions, so any arguments based on "1 in a million" events (extrapolated unreliably from master chess) not being likely and thus to be ignored is kind of stupid (as well as invalid).
Jun 23, 2024
0
#9639
playerafar wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
playerafar wrote:
Hey shig - tygxc doesn't have to shut up.
What are you doing here?
tbf it would be highly beneficial to all parties involved if tygxc DID shut up.
MEGA - have you noticed that nobody ever agrees with tygxc?
...
Not quite true. @tygxc does sometimes (but not always).
@12807
Again:
Promotions happen in chess games, and neither the Gourion paper nor the file with 10,000 sample positions without promotions to pieces not previously captured exclude those:
they exclude only promotions to pieces not previously captured.
Promotions to pieces not previously captured happen occasionally in master games or ICCF games, but when they happen, then promotions are to a queen.
Underpromotions happen occasionally in master games or ICCF games,
but when they happen, the piece promoted to is already captured.
Underpromotions to pieces not previously captured do not happen in master games or ICCF games, so should not be counted when talking about optimal play by both sides as relevant to weakly solving Chess.
If the Laws of Chess were changed so you could only promote to either a queen,
or a piece previously captured, then all master games and ICCF games would stay the same,
with the same moves and the same outcome.
So the count should be as if the Laws of Chess were thus changed.
@12768
"The positions with 9 or more positions are similar in number to those with 8 or fewer."
++ No. 19201527561695835455154058755564594798074 / 8726713169886222032347729969256422370854716254 = 2.2*10^-6.
So the normal positions with no promotions to pieces not previously captured make up 2.2 millionth of all Tromp positions.
Positions with 9 promotions to pieces not previously captured make up 22.7%.
"Faulty premises give faulty conclusions." ++ Valid premises give right conclusions.
"chess variants where pawns cannot advance passed the seventh rank" ++ Cannot you read? 'Without promotion' is short for 'without promotion to a piece not previously captured'. Promotion to a piece not previously captured happens in maybe 1 game in 100, or 1 position in 1000.
"the game starts with fewer queens than pawns"
++ But for a pawn to reach the 8th rank at least one capture is necessary.
Of course promotions happen,
but by the time promotion happens usually the desired queen is already captured.
Even more in the rare case of underpromotion, as there are 2 rooks, bishops, and knights and usually at least one of those is captured by the time a pawn promotes.
"You didn't even do a dodgy calculation for that did you?"
++ Multiplying by 10 for something rare like 1 game in 100 or 1 position in 1000 is generous.
"About 5000 positions?" ++ 8720 resulting from considering 10^17 positions.
"no weak solution contains 1. d4 Nf6, 1. d4 d5, 1. e4 c5 and 1. e4 e5"
++ Those are 4 weak solutions:
If a pair of errors were found in 1 e4 e5, then 1 e4 c5 is available as a backup and vice versa.
If a pair of errors were found in 1 d4 d5, then 1 d4 Nf6 is available as a backup and vice versa.
The redundancy is unnecessary, but makes the weak solution fail safe against possible errors.