Chess will never be solved, here's why

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MARattigan

@Elroch (#13596)

I was quoting you but addressing @punchdrunkpatzer, he seemed to be thinking of a process where the white balls were removed but the black ball replaced - couldn't understand why.

Your post was straightforwardly correct.

playerafar
Elroch wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
playerafar wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

"if you do replace the balls,..." @Elroch

"which i dont believe the op of the problem suggested." me

Elroch already covered earlier both scenarios of both replacing the balls and not replacing them.

And he was wrong about not replacing them.

Do explain. I don't recall being wrong.

pdp conceded Elroch.
His post doing so appears above.
Sometimes these posts don't appear right away.

Elroch

@MARattigan, fortunately that would not matter, because anything that happens after you do hit the black ball does not affect the outcome of interest.

punchdrunkpatzer
Elroch wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
playerafar wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

"if you do replace the balls,..." @Elroch

"which i dont believe the op of the problem suggested." me

Elroch already covered earlier both scenarios of both replacing the balls and not replacing them.

And he was wrong about not replacing them.

Do explain. I don't recall being wrong. I do recall considering two alternative questions (I was looking for a question to fit Ghostess' answer, but I didn't end up with one - I am pretty sure there is another well-known problem she was thinking of).

i was using a hypergeometric version of the Bernoulli Trial equation covered in one of my textbooks. To check, I instead did the product of (100-k)/(101-k) in 50 increments and got 1/2 like you said. I must ahve made an error in using the formula because it should have returned 1/2.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Actually math is very much a 'strong suit' of both Elroch and MEGA.

well neither ones proving it now...now are they ?

MARattigan
Elroch wrote:

@MARattigan, fortunately that would not matter, because anything that happens after you do hit the black ball does not affect the outcome of interest.

True.

MARattigan
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Actually math is very much a 'strong suit' of both Elroch and MEGA.

well neither ones proving now...are they ?

Yes they are. (Did you get my message?)

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

wait a sec...u bloat like a balloon abt how u dom stockfish. am im gonna all a sudden listen to u ? ...plz.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

u needta thinka it as a lottery. except 1 number in a 100. not 5 in 70. then ull know ur all solving it wrong. ur brains swelled & trapped in a box. expand u beauzeauz...think !!

...trust me. its not that hard lol !

MEGACHE3SE
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
Elroch wrote:

And if you do replace the balls, the chance of not ever getting the white ball is (99/100)^50 = 0.605, so the chance of getting it is 0.395.

This is incorrect. Using the standard equation for Bernoulli trials with n=100, k=50, and the probability of initial success being .01, the probability of success in 50 trials is 30.556%.

u sure there isnt just a calculation rounding error? or are you doing the calculation with a more precise calculator than google?

also isnt using a bernoulli trial just an inefficient way of calculation? calculating from the probability of not getting a success with replacement is just 1 - (99/100)^50.

No. This is because every successive trial removes a ball from the hat. That is to say, your probability of success on the first attempt is 1/100, on the second 1/99, etc. Your calculation assumes the black ball is replaced into the pool every attempt, which i dont believe the op of the problem suggested.

oh no the removal calculation is just straight 50/50, i had just assumed u meant the other one because the removal calculation problem is trivial.

in fact, i explained in multiple ways how it is trivial elsewhere on the forum.

edit: didnt see your second post, my bad. since someone else got that erred value im curious what the error was .

punchdrunkpatzer
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

u needta thinka it as a lottery. except 1 number in a 100. not 5 in 70. then ull know ur all solving it wrong. ur brains swelled & trapped in a box. expand u beauzeauz...think !!

...trust me. its not that hard lol !

With replacement, the standard Bernoulli Trials formula will suffice. With n=50, k=1, and the odds of success being .01, the probability of success is 30.56%. The odds of not succeeding are therefore 69.46%. Is this where you originally got 69%?

MARattigan
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

wait a sec...u bloat like a balloon abt how u dom stockfish. am im gonna all a sudden listen to u ? ...plz.

I don't mind you chickening out, but you might have had the courtesy to say so.

playerafar
ibrust wrote:

You should actually be thanking me for fighting so strongly for the wellbeing of your loser dunce behind. And if you didn't resent your daddy deeply you would be thanking me.

DiogenesDue wrote:

You have no idea what would be healthy for me or anyone else here.

I do, actually. Because as humans we have a common human nature, and it is just fundamentally not healthy for humans to debate online about how tablebases are formed for 4.5 months continuously. We know that. It's also deeply unhealthy to be unable to cope with people pointing out when you're engaging in unhealthy behavior. It'd be healthy for you to stop arguing with me / babbling off rationalizations, and just accept all of this. Dr. Phil would be proud if you could do that.

DiogenesDue wrote:

I should point out here that your assumption about daily volume over 2.5 years is now being compounded with an assumption about how many people have commented here in 2.5 years.

Not really because I can see the same people debating on page 1, on page 100, on page 300, and still here at page almost 600. You're correct I didn't look at all the individual pages. Good job, aren't you an impressive pseudo-intellectual, you have pointed out that I have not looked at every single page of this pointless debate, wow you are smart aren't you, and you even wrapped this point up in nice big debate words, man I can't even keep up with you.

DiogenesDue wrote:

I haven't made 13,000+ posts here, and neither has anyone else. So then, you have graduating from passing judgment on a few of us to every single person that has commented?

Well actually... there is a plural form of "you", and since you're presuming to defend this activity on principle you are appointing yourself to broadly represent those involved. But no, my comments aren't directed at people who have made 1 or 2 comments in the thread (I know I need to clarify this for you), but rather those who have kept the thread going for 13000 posts. And no, it's not a diverse bunch of people spontaneously keeping this thread alive, it's one small set of people. Anyway, you have a real talent for completely ignoring the meaning of things, and squabbling over just the little semantic details, don't you? Maybe you have some autism. You should go to a psychologist and see if they can diagnose you. It could help you become less crippled. 
What seems more important ... squabbling over this semantic nonsense, or addressing the issue that you / others have sat on your a$$es for 4.5 months continuously debating how tablebases are formed, and are still continuing to? 
For you the nonsense matters because you have to prop up your weak, fragile ego. That's how you try to do it... it's why you participate in these debates, why you can't turn away from them after 13000+ posts... and it's also why, when I point this out, it's such a sensitive spot for you, and it makes you so pissed off doesn't it?

DiogenesDue wrote: 

As for people's lives...I consider several of the activities you mentioned previously to be a waste of time at this point...I find it completely predictable that you would claim other activities such as carpentry, meeting your wife, working on chess, etc. are indistinguishable from debating some pointless topic on the internet.I made no such claim. Be more perceptive, and more precise, thanks. I said that some of the activities you listed are a waste of time, which as it turns out is because I have either already accomplished them, or because I have evaluated them or participated in them before and found them lacking and so not worth pursuing. Building a gazebo? This is the bar for you? It's some 4x4s and some trelliswork from Home Depot.

Well if the activities are a waste of time they're indistinct, in terms of their intrinsic value, from squabbling with people on the internet. And the phase "such as - a, b, c, etc." does not suggest that all elements listed are included, but rather elements of a similar nature to those listed. So no... you did make that claim. You made that claim, but you try your best to be pedantic and to ignore the meaning of what's being said to you - irony being that it is, infact, you who needs to be more perceptive - or rather, to not be intentionally imperceptive as some meaningless debate tactic.

Anyway... if you really can't recognize that squabbling for 650 pages over chess tablesbases is intrinsically meaningless, or that regular everyday activities (some examples of which I listed) have inherent meaning, I'm not sure i can really explain that to you... most normal people reading this can recognize the difference though. And so can you, you're just pretending that you can't, being stupid on purpose essentially.

DiogenesDue wrote:

And what point is that, exactly? You have no basis for any claims about what point anyone has reached in their lives, or what people are propping up for not.

Of course I do - your own prolonged participation in this thread, combined with your own statements and attitudes. Your behavior makes it very clear what kind of lifestyle you live, and that there's a problem that needs fixing. That's just the truth, I'm sorry it hurts but I didn't put you in this position, you did. I'm just pointing out the reality. Infact I'm hoping you will take it to heart and turn the ship in another direction. Don't shoot the messenger, little man.

DiogenesDue wrote:

This is the knee jerk response (emphasis upon the the latter) of someone who tried to toss out some unsolicited and insulting "advice" for others while purportedly exiting the thread, and who then caught got with foot still in the door and is now feeling sheepish for being petty.

The person feeling sheepish here is you when I point out you / others have been dwelling in this thread for 4.5 months worth of uninterrupted time debating how tablebases are formed. 
4.5 months of continuous debating is a long, long time. What would you all have done if I hadn't mentioned it? Just kept going? 
I wonder how long you could go if just left uninterrupted... just kept going like the energizer bunny. 
Maybe I'll come back in a few years and see if this is still going on. I'll put it on my calendar 2 years from now.

DiogenesDue wrote:

That conclusion doesn't follow, sorry. That's a narrative in your head...

Well the statement here is more based on observation of your behavior and attitudes than some formal logical deduction. However, loosely the way a person treats others is a reflection of how they want to be treated, so there is some logic underlying it. You're correct this hasn't been logically formalized, though. I'm glad you figured out the difference between your debate class and real life. 
You're trying very hard to appear intelligent but it doesn't work when your argument has no substance, it is just plain to see you do not want me questioning your behavior. Like all we have to do is just observe your reaction here. Keep trying.

DiogenesDue wrote:

the ubiquitous "anyone that I don't like must be living in their parent's basement living on welfare and subsisting on Cheetos" narrative that insecure people often latch onto as their go-to coping mechanism.

Well you had to be eating something the entire time. What were you eating? Not Cheetos, so what then...? Pringles? I hope you're not starving in your basement so preoccupied with debating chess tablebases that you can't even be torn away long enough to eat, just wasting away. Maybe your mom is bringing a trash can downstairs for you to take a dump in... I hope so.

There's a giant, gaping chasm between your behavior and the identity you aim to put forward. It is as wide as the grand canyon!

You may have the last word.

@ibrust was here for a few days.
Very active. While O had become absent.
Then ibrust disappears and O re-appears.
Dio has apparently said they would fail to imitate each other sufficiently.
And Dio might know ibrust from before whereas I don't.
------------------------------
But ibrust sounds so much like O in the quoted post.And so often - when O cannot refute what is being said to him - O starts talking about Alt accounts. False accusations by O.
And since O so often falsely accuses others of doing that which O in fact does constantly and blatantly ... that causes me to think that ibrust could be an alt of O. Could be.
But Dio could be right too. Instead.
Candidates of O alts tend to show up when O is offline though.

punchdrunkpatzer
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
Elroch wrote:

And if you do replace the balls, the chance of not ever getting the white ball is (99/100)^50 = 0.605, so the chance of getting it is 0.395.

This is incorrect. Using the standard equation for Bernoulli trials with n=100, k=50, and the probability of initial success being .01, the probability of success in 50 trials is 30.556%.

u sure there isnt just a calculation rounding error? or are you doing the calculation with a more precise calculator than google?

also isnt using a bernoulli trial just an inefficient way of calculation? calculating from the probability of not getting a success with replacement is just 1 - (99/100)^50.

No. This is because every successive trial removes a ball from the hat. That is to say, your probability of success on the first attempt is 1/100, on the second 1/99, etc. Your calculation assumes the black ball is replaced into the pool every attempt, which i dont believe the op of the problem suggested.

oh no the removal calculation is just straight 50/50, i had just assumed u meant the other one because the removal calculation problem is trivial.

in fact, i explained in multiple ways how it is trivial elsewhere on the forum.

edit: didnt see your second post, my bad. since someone else got that erred value im curious what the error was .

i was mistakenly applying the standard formula for bernoulli trials which assume statistical independence instead of the hypergeometric version which doesn't assume statistical independence of each trial.

His figures are still wrong. The chance of success assuming replacement is 30.56% rounded. But I was also wrong because the odds of success assuming removal is indeed 1/2.

playerafar
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Actually math is very much a 'strong suit' of both Elroch and MEGA.

well neither ones proving it now...now are they ?

If you don't understand the math Lola - or don't want to -
then nothing would be proven to Thee in any case.

playerafar

Regarding swiss scientist Bernoulli ...
indeed a great man.
The principle of an airfoil is related to something worked out by Bernoulli.
In other words lesser downward pressure on the top of the airfoil (or wing with leading edge that is 'farther for air to go around' on the top) being less than the air pressure on the bottom - 
causing Lift. In other words enabling aircraft.
-------------------------------------------------
There's a similiar principle in tennis and in baseball pitching.
Topspin in tennis causes the ball to arc downwards because of additional air pressure on top.
Whereas underspin causes the ball to 'glide' somewhat. 
There's Lift there. The extra pressure is on the bottom of the ball.
Similiar with lateral Curve of trajectory. Sidespin.
But different with Twist. Which mostly affects the bounce. Laterally.
Especially on second Serves.
Djokovic got a walkover to the Semis at Wimble.
Yes Wimbledon I know.
But Djoko got a Wimble into the semis.
And I think white King and eight pawns on their original squares versus lone black King should be a Computer Walkover too.
White to move should get a Wimble on that one and all its variants.
Elroch and I in 'difference' on that.
But not completely 'indifferent'.
Close. One could be 'active' but without 'caring'. A difference there too.

MARattigan
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
...

His figures are still wrong. The chance of success assuming replacement is 30.56% rounded. ...

I think you might like to try that one again. Put away your formula book, it's straightforward.

punchdrunkpatzer
MARattigan wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
...

His figures are still wrong. The chance of success assuming replacement is 30.56% rounded. ...

I think you might like to try that one again.

The formula is quite simple: to calculate the probability of k successes in n trials the formula is

C(n,k)p^kq^n-k

where C is the binomial coefficient p the probability of success and q the probability of failure. Just plug in the numbers and you'll get the answer

punchdrunkpatzer
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
punchdrunkpatzer wrote:
...

His figures are still wrong. The chance of success assuming replacement is 30.56% rounded. ...

I think you might like to try that one again.

The formula is quite simple: to calculate the probability of k successes in n trials the formula is

C(n,k)p^kq^n-k

where C is the binomial coefficient p the probability of success and q the probability of failure. Just plug in the numbers and you'll get the answer

Alternatively, you can type in Bernoulli trial caluclator on google and find a good tool to plug the numbers in

edit- the numbers are n=50 trials, k=1 success, and p=.01 probability of success

playerafar

I think that one will 'get straightened out' soon.