Chess will never be solved, here's why

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playerafar
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

I think in terms of solving the game, what is the significance of perfect information regarding the solution...

For a game that contains perfect information we can produce a solution that guarantees a certain theoretical result. For a game that hides some information this hidden information will continue to cause variance in result even with a solution at hand... We can merely come up with a strategy that provides us with the optimal odds at achieving the optimal result.

For this reason the model that currently defines games of perfect information is significant.. It defines the potential of optimal play resulting from a solution.

On the other hand what would be the purpose for defining all games that are not yet solved as games as imperfect information.. The definition would provide no value. We can just call that an unsolved game, right?

That tends to imply that the game can be solved.

Enigma could be solved but chess must be many millions of times harder to solve. Maybe it's unsolveable.

If it's finite, it's solvable within a finite amount of time. That's the only meaningful way to define solvable.

You don't have to prove that @ Octopus. As you know.
Yes its finite.
But with today's technology solving chess would take many trillions of years.
That's not practical. So the finite argument isn't a meaningful way to define solving.
But to each his own.
Its not necessary to accomodate silly 'we have to' arguments from (its not me) the particular person who makes them.
But if you also want to 'decide for others' and repeat that mistake by 'the other' that's your choice.

OctopusOnSteroids
crazedrat1000 wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

You would clarify distinctions such as those when you extended the model. The model isn't extended yet and you're trying to mash criticisms of it within its existing framework. That doesn't work, and neither does your argument.

As you said, the model has to serve a real life purpose. The real life purpose the existing model serves is it defines the potential for a solution. What purpose that is more significant does your alternative model serve with a different definition for perfect information? Thats the question one has to answer if you want to offer a better or more effective definition.

No, the model needs to accurately model reality. In this case... the existing models are assuming a perfect player, and defining perfect information based on that. What I'm saying is, in reality, no such thing exists. Yes, your conclusion is true within your irrelevant model, but there's no point to this. You don't create a model for its own sake. Hence the game theory model needs to be extended - the definition of perfect information needs to be modified - to more accurately model reality.

And that's always the way models works, that's how fields always evolve. I guarantee there is room for a game theorist to come along, and look at these problems, and extend game theory to account for them.

Basically you'd just have to create a model inwhich, instead of assuming a perfect player, you can define certain limits on the players ability to handle complexity. And you could probably model that mathematically using fields of probability and stochastic modeling. You could then tune the model to match the game... infact, your model would sort-of resemble an AI model.

To achieve the model you propsoe you have to determine the absolute point where game is too complex for theoretical limit of human interpretation. Such point cant be determined so your model is actually impractical and would solve less of a purpose than one that determines potential for a theoretically possible solution...

crazedrat1000

No, you don't, it's sufficient to just say that human cognition lies somewhere along the continuum between complete random moves and perfect moves. i.e. all those probabilities in the field of equations you could adjust anywhere between... a completely equal likelihood of any given move, and whatever perfectly sophisticated set of probabilities the "proof" converges on.

That statement alone provides you all the justification you need to redefine terms within the model and contextualize them appropriately. You can use this scale between randomness and perfection as an input to functions to redefine all the terms, including perfect information, and your existing terms would just all be qualified by perfection on the scale.

playerafar

'model' would be described by 'hypothetical construct' perhaps.
'constructing a model' to provide proof of something? (might work sometimes)
As an idea? Looks better.
As a talking point? Not as good.

playerafar
crazedrat1000 wrote:

No, you don't, it's sufficient to just say that human cognition lies somewhere along the continuum between complete random moves and perfect moves. i.e. all those probabilities in the field of equations you could adjust anywhere between... a completely equal likelihood of any given move, and whatever perfectly sophisticated set of probabilities the "proof" converges on.

That statement alone provides you all the justification you need to redefine terms within the model and contextualize them appropriately.

that looks ok - but not the part about 'completely equal likelihood'. Yes that could be technically sufficient or even necessary. But something wrong with it.

OctopusOnSteroids
crazedrat1000 wrote:

No, you don't, it's sufficient to just say that human cognition lies somewhere along the continuum between complete random moves and perfect moves. i.e. all those probabilities in the field of equations you could adjust anywhere between... a completely equal likelihood of any given move, and whatever perfectly sophisticated set of probabilities the "proof" converges on.

That statement alone provides you all the justification you need to redefine terms within the model and contextualize them appropriately.

Your model agrees with the existing one and needs no extension ? Human cognition can be enough to play a perfect move in chess whereas in a game of imperfect information human cognition cant guarantee that under any circumstances.. What you propose is baked in the current model and definition

crazedrat1000

Yeah he didn't but.. both of them got it so inverted I felt it wasn't worth the effort even trying to rectify it.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Oh look it's the guy who likes to think he's incredibly clever.

Self-awareness continues to elude you.

I'm incredibly clever, though, so I'm also self-aware. You think that you are but you're obviously fulfilling the role of a troll. Try to discuss the topic, if you're able.

You're about as clever as a cow chewing its cud.

This subtopic is not that interesting and it's Saturday. Besides, you have yet to respond to my evisceration of your "bots make random moves, simple as that" claim. The moment I actually did a deeper dive, you were out...this is your normal tactic. Argue superficially, then bail at the first sign of trouble.

playerafar

Dio seems to provide Opto with someone to talk to.
Its a kind of generosity? babysitting?
Opto regards it as a 'contest' but he always 'loses'. Badly.
But the term 'contest' is used loosely.

playerafar
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Yeah he didn't but.. both of them got it so inverted I felt it wasn't worth the effort even trying to rectify it.

I said a particular part of it could be technically sufficient or even necessary.
I said that part didn't look right.
I didn't 'invert' anything. 
And I disagree with Octopus about many things. Not everything though.
But too many people seem to be scared to disagree with Optomissed which is remarkable because he gets so many things wrong.
Like his 'AI makes internet searches impossible'
and his complaining about his pompous attitude 'not getting enough respect'.
Which are just two of his many failures.

playerafar
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Oh look it's the guy who likes to think he's incredibly clever.

Self-awareness continues to elude you.

I'm incredibly clever, though, so I'm also self-aware. You think that you are but you're obviously fulfilling the role of a troll. Try to discuss the topic, if you're able.

You're about as clever as a cow chewing its cud.

This subtopic is not that interesting and it's Saturday. Besides, you have yet to respond to my evisceration of your "bots make random moves, simple as that" claim. The moment I actually did a deeper dive, you were out...this is your normal tactic. Argue superficially, then bail at the first sign of trouble.

Opto often leaves around 12 midnight UK time. Greenwich time.
But on at least one occasion something remarkable happened at 11 Greenwich.
A dramatic mood swing by him. Very suddenly to the positive.
Anyway he'll probably disappear by 7pm Eastern in a couple of hours.
----------------

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Possibly because like player, you don't know what you're talking about. And you used to be a computer expert at one time. Innit tragic.

Still got nothing, eh?

playerafar

Opto just admitted he has a pompous attitude too.
Didn't realize it as he posted it. Why not? Because he's got a pom ---- 
That's right. Should his unintended admission be quoted?
Nah ... not this time. Maybe he'll fix it.
happy

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Possibly because like player, you don't know what you're talking about. And you used to be a computer expert at one time. Innit tragic.

Still got nothing, eh?

Honestly, there are very few people here who are worth discussing anything with. I think MAR's brighter than you and even player, if he tried harder. Elroch most definitely, but would I wish to discuss anything with them?

Octo is ok because he's a nice guy with interesting ideas and Mr rat is ok because he's clever.

If you actually thought that there's almost nobody here worth discussing anything with, then that would prove you are just here to feed your own ego. If that's not true, then you are being disingenuous. So which is it?

Your incessant need to try and rank people by intelligence (with yourself at the top, of course) implies the rather significant issue you are suffering from.

crazedrat1000
Optimissed wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Yeah he didn't but.. both of them got it so inverted I felt it wasn't worth the effort even trying to rectify it.

They gave this post of yours I'm quoting a minus one, drawing attention to the fact that one of them dislikes it.

Diogenes, meanwhile, is telling me I'm as clever as he is. That's very nice of him I'm sure but is it an accolade or a criticism, in reality?

I'd interpret it as an accolade, as it shows he's aware that he couldn't claim anything more than to be an intellectual equal.

People who are less intelligent may have valid opinions, they can even be correct in cases where those more intelligent are not... but these less intelligent people do need to cultivate some humility and make more of an attempt to listen / understand those smarter than them - due to the intelligence gap this is an issue. It doesn't need to be an issue of pretense unless you make it into one, and I don't support pretenses where I see them, however this is a major obstacle in these conversations. I also don't have any desire to deny the reality of intelligence differences ... I'm secure enough in who I am to acknowledge them, you should be too. They exist, by denying them you make yourself dumber than you need to be.

DiogenesDue
crazedrat1000 wrote:

I'd interpret it as an accolade, as it shows he's aware that he couldn't claim anything more than to be an intellectual equal.

People who are less intelligent may have valid opinions, they can even be correct in cases where those more intelligent are not... but these less intelligent people do need to cultivate some humility and make more of an attempt to listen / understand those smarter than them - due to the intelligence gap this is an issue. It doesn't need to be an issue of pretense unless you make it into one, and I don't support pretenses where I see them, however this is a major obstacle in these conversations. I also don't have any desire to deny the reality of intelligence differences ... I'm secure enough in who I am to acknowledge them, you should be too. They exist, by denying them you make yourself dumber than you need to be.

Go do a Tarot reading and tell us if Optimissed's psi powers are real wink.png.

MARattigan
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
... Human cognition can be enough to play a perfect move in chess whereas in a game of imperfect information human cognition cant guarantee that under any circumstances.. 

Really, perfect information has little to do with it.

I've just invented a game called O. It's not very exciting, but some people with unfeasibly large IQs might get endles enjoyment from it.

There are two players and a referee.

On the table are two staplers and a paper dispenser that dispenses single sheets of paper so long as it is not empty. The contents of the staplers and the paper dispenser are invisible.

At the start of the game the referee loads each stapler with an undisclosed random length of staples and the paper dispenser with an undisclosed random number of sheets. It is not permitted for either player to open a stapler or the paper dispenser while the game is in progress. Both staplers are defective and will randomly fail to staple with a single punch.

The referee then assigns the labels "White" and "Black" to the players and assigns each player his own stapler.

White moves first then the players alternate moves with Black making the next move.

A move consists of dispensing a single sheet of paper and stapling it using the stapler assigned. Only a single punch of the stapler is allowed..

The first player who fails to successfully complete his move loses.

This is not a game of perfect information under any definition, but human cognition can guarantee to find the optimal line of play. There is only one line so it's not very hard.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Not almost no-one. There are people here I'm pleased to communicate with. I named two such people and there are many more. It's just that, being a troll .... I mean, a person with a very poor opinion of the moral character of almost everyone but yourself .... means that you are not one of them.

Listen, you have 15 Chess.com friends. That says a great deal about you and quite a few of them are titled players, which says even more. I do sometimes point out that if someone is thick, unpleasant and unintelligent then they have very few redeeming features.

I see you subscribe to the modern failed notion that counting "friends" online has something to do with actual friendships.

I have few "friends" on the site because I am particular about it. You, on the other hand. will ally yourself with any 12-year-old that happens along...for as long they agree with you.

The fact that you have to go digging into someone's friend list looking for something to attack them on just proves where you actually perceive yourself to be in the pecking order of things.

crazedrat1000

Well these things have been practiced for millennia, they're reported on in just about every noteworthy religion and every cult I've heard about, and we also have physical explanations, so... it shouldn't really be beyond the realm of comprehension. But it's not only Optimissed capable of such things, it's all conscious beings, however the trick is many modern people shut themselves off from the transcendent aspect of their awareness... due to materialistic dogmatic attitudes. But yes, you're capable of such things as well, as is everyone else in this thread.

crazedrat1000
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

I'd interpret it as an accolade, as it shows he's aware that he couldn't claim anything more than to be an intellectual equal.

People who are less intelligent may have valid opinions, they can even be correct in cases where those more intelligent are not... but these less intelligent people do need to cultivate some humility and make more of an attempt to listen / understand those smarter than them - due to the intelligence gap this is an issue. It doesn't need to be an issue of pretense unless you make it into one, and I don't support pretenses where I see them, however this is a major obstacle in these conversations. I also don't have any desire to deny the reality of intelligence differences ... I'm secure enough in who I am to acknowledge them, you should be too. They exist, by denying them you make yourself dumber than you need to be.

Go do a Tarot reading and tell us if Optimissed's psi powers are real .

Does he do tarot? My late brother wrote a book about that. I could get it published, quite easily, I believe. He was something of an expert but he's also worshipped, to some extent. He was a Sufi, I suppose.

Perhaps I should cause his memory to live on.

I merely suggested Dio try the Tarot as a simple introduction. I thought I could show him that he has the ability to invoke these events. I was wrong, I greatly overestimated him.

Personally I just use random number generators if I want to generate a "macro-quantum event" (I know you don't believe it works that way) as I find my own consciousness is a better interpretant than any formal system.

The tarot is a meaningful system of symbolism based in a sound metaphysical framework, but it's sort of limited in its specificity.