Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Just an attempt at a helpful pointer. This post by Dio is one of a type that's dramatically increasing in frequency. An obvious deviation from reality, presented in very strong terms which indicates either a strong desire to win arguments at any price ... or increasingly delusory thinking.

I know that people often like to close ranks but this type of thing should be pointed out, since it concerns a person's health. Minor deviations from reality are becoming quite major ones, which are also being presented in stronger and stronger terms.

This is why people laugh when you accuse others of stealing arguments. You are positing something I observed about you within the past day or two, when I said that your delusionary narrative of your life and objective reality were running away from each other.

playerafar
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Just an attempt at a helpful pointer. This post by Dio is one of a type that's dramatically increasing in frequency. An obvious deviation from reality, presented in very strong terms which indicates either a strong desire to win arguments at any price ... or increasingly delusory thinking.

I know that people often like to close ranks but this type of thing should be pointed out, since it concerns a person's health. Minor deviations from reality are becoming quite major ones, which are also being presented in stronger and stronger terms.

This is why people laugh when you accuse others of stealing arguments. You are positing something I observed about you within the past day or two, when I said that your delusionary narrative of your life and objective reality were running away from each other.

Does anybody have more insane worries about forum 'copyright and patent' than Opto does?
Whatever match people strike - on purpose or not - Opto will burn and scream for a while. Including wanting to do a 'lawsuit' in the forum about whether it was his idea or not. And it usually isn't.
Does this relate to the forum subject?
Yes - 'never be solved' problems of those chessplayers who arrogantly thought they should be titled players and failed. Failed miserably. Permanently miserably.
'Never be solved'.
The good part: Most people don't maintain such arrogance or don't have it in the first place. Such arrogance caused by extreme insecurity.
'Will never be solved'

Elroch
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

That's nonsense. Just one of the 30,000 ways that you have been wrong, over the years. Anyone with good eyesight can see the earth's curvature and that was my argument at the time. You're just full of opinions but they're the opinions of a person who cannot manage to see the world as it is.

Any decent surveyor, engineer or artist would see it.

There are several hundred articles and videos debunking your notion, which flat earthers have used for years to argue why the earth must be flat, by the way. They are, amazingly, a bit less prone to confirmation bias than you are...they argue that *not* being able to detect a curvature from a hilltop, somehow means the earth is actually flat.

@Optimissed is correct, but you need a good location.

In an airplane cruising at the usual c. 35,000 feet on a clear day the horizon is more than 3 degrees below you - easily noticed without instruments - AND you can see the "bulge" in the region of the surface you can see (the horizon is a circle of radius around 368 kilometers, or curvature of around 6 degrees from one horizon to the opposite one).

On top of a mountain with a view of the sea on a clear day, the horizon may be nice and crisp and will be about one degree below you if the mountain is 1000m high. You probably need a theodolite to confirm the curvature, but this has the advantage of being precise and quantitative (and easy - that is a big angle to such a device).

A pretty direct (and very accessible) observation of curvature is to stand on a shore on a clear day and see objects beyond the horizon with the lower parts obstructed - ships, wind turbines, oil rigs.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

to argue why the earth must be flat

it didnt help help that they could see the litehouse of alexandria from mount olympus. AND even the firelight atop the king pyramid (tho barely)...they say. making those viewing ?...thinking that the earth may a been as flat as doo's personality. i read where they employed (iknow iknow itsa dorky word) water-optical prisms to yackup the multiple for their very own viewing pleasure lol !

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

your life and objective reality were running away from each other.

wudder u talking abt ??...opti's hold one anothers hand.

AGC-Gambit_YT
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

I'm not challenging the data, I'm challenging your ability to read and interpret things, which seems pretty lackluster.

My chess.com elo is 1955 today. If you're claiming that FIDE is 150 below that - well then it's 150 below that. That's about the end of the analysis. I don't exactly know what it is since I shifted to blitz, then bullet, and now I'm into daily. I'll go back to rapid at some point and then we'll really know. But looking at my last 500 games is not somehow more insightful than just looking at my current rating.
On the other hand, in daily I'm probably actually higher rated than rapid, but I haven't played much daily hence I'm only at 1500 there currently.

"So no, that evidence doesn't support your conclusion, of course you'd like to construe it as such but no"

There is not much to interpret. Since the AI draws the conclusions. And the computer AI saw the rise in your Elo over the 586 games.

Then gave the correct Elo for your last game date in the data set.

And the computer nailed your Elo for your game play like OP.... And it matches the expected difference between Chess.com Elo, and Fide ELO.

And yes I know you also cheat with a opening book in your online games.

I might be the most active commentator in the opening section of this forum and have studied it almost exclusively since I started, I have not even started on studying the endgame or midgame yet, hence the skew that you see there. This is something I have spoken about many times before. It's why I can confidently out-debate 2300s on the opening, but still I'm only rated 1950. So yes, my knowledge of the opening far outstrips the other aspects of my play - for now.

I simply am taking a progressive systematic approach to learning the game. That is my style. You would know nothing about it...

What you are is a good example of what happens when a feeble minded person is given an AI tool and presented with lots of statistics which they're incapable of interpreting in an intelligent way.

Now, I think cheating accusations are against the rules - so keep it up and you might find yourself moderated.

Well then sincere congratulation are in order for your outstanding opening chess theory, and knowledge.

The AI saw and recognized you played at a 250% opening chess theory level. That is better then the best Grandmaster on the planet.

And you destroyed O's opening chess theory performance of 226%.

This makes you the best chess opening theorist on planet Earth. And better then the best Grandmaster on planet Earth.

Again congratulation on this outstanding performance in chess opening theory....

This is a daily game we're analyzing, so I don't know what the baseline is. If my 250% is inhuman shouldn't you claim Optimissed 226% is practically inhuman as well...? So aren't you really claiming we both cheated? You're only talking about a 24% difference there.

But no one here, including you, seems to have any idea what "24%" even means, it's just nonsense.

The first 10 moves of that game are typical slav moves in the most theoretical slav position I play, the alapin slav. There's nothing inhuman about the moves in that game. Point to the inhuman move. It's literally just develop along normal lines, Nd7 and castles, Be7 to trade bishops at one point, and then Nd6 > f6 is the critical move. Are you saying no one could possibly find f6? In a daily game? Point to the actual moves you think are suspect.

There was no cheating in that game.

Now, I've reported you repeatedly because cheating accusations are not allowed on this forum. But since this place is very poorly moderated, probably nothing will happen but who knows. In this case I don't even know what the basis for accusation is, I don't know what "250%" even means and I don't think anyone else here does. As I said, you are what happens when a feeble mind gets ahold of AI tools.

Again as you well know. I used zero daily time controls games. When looking at your games. I used only your rapid time control game.

And again what a out standing result. Scoring 250% in chess theory. GM So could only manage a brain numbing score of only 89%.

Unless further details are provided on the formula, I'll maintain this is likely a poor way to detect cheating... A GM might choose a non theoretical line on purpose and score a lower % than some 1500 who always plays the same theoretical London moves..

I agree let us get some more data points.

Theory: Factors include the average evaluation after the opening (., the advantage White gains from the opening), the average length of theoretical lines, and the breadth of the repertoire. Main lines are preferred; however, the "modernity" of the repertoire is not considered.

Here is the results for the best chess player of all time on Chess.com. This is all his Rapid games for the last 4 years, and your results. Poor Magnus could only get 67% in chess theory.

But you are a Octopus On Steroids. Wow! You know these opening lines no matter what lines are played. It is almost like you have a computer chip implanted in your brain with nothing but opening chess theory. If you could only improve the rest of your game using that photographic memory. You could become the world chess champion. With a theory score of 540%, you make those other two look like low grade morons.

WHAT IS THAT WEBSITE CALLED

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

May I introduce you to the notion of irony?

"Optimissed - notion of irony.

Notion of irony - Optimissed. "

(I am not 100% sure you will be friends).

Also, my specialisation was mathematically analysis, although at post-grad level fields tend to overlap. For example measure theory and functional analysis find natural common ground, and measure theory is the foundation of calculus and also key to probability theory, which is more my subject than statistics.

As for simplicity, have you understood my posts on the probability theory of infinite sequences of IID boolean random variables yet? (Rhetorical question).

I haven't read it.

A difficult claim to maintain since you responded at length, arguing that mathematicians had got it all wrong and needed a philosopher to tell them how to do such things (not that anything close to doing so was possible).

What you mean is that you have forgotten that.

If it was for my attention, perhaps you should think again. IDD

that's IID, and it is an axiom that is appropriate in many cases, and not in others. It definitely was in the topic being discussed at that time.

is an assumption used in order to make the maths easier. That was explained to us when we were first introduced to Calculus in the fourth or fifth form of Grammar School in the mid 1960s. I imagine that infinite series makes IDD exact and no longer an assumption but rather, an hypothetical ideal.

To bring someone with rusty recollection of school maths up to speed with an advanced topic, IID is an axiom (really a finite set of axioms, but any number of axioms can be combined in one axiom).

It is appropriate very often and on other occasions. That is the nature of all axioms.

I recall one of our silly conversations where you steadfastly refused to try to understand my explanation of how I saw the concept of infinity and how it interacts with some problems in pure maths.

You arrogantly rejectly all of what was know and of which you were ignorant. This was a mistake.

I'm not responsible for your refusal to think well. You would make a good maths teacher and maybe that's what you did.

There are limits posed by the person being taught.

That's provided you can simplify and explain the fundamentals as well as our maths teacher, Joe Stokoe. I still may have been the only one in the class to fully understand the derivation of differential and integral calculus. At the time, I imagined that many of the others would have understood him too.

But your ego has since revised that probably correct belief?

Sorry that we have to disagree on this, Elroch. I would have meant that since I am not a mathematician and you are, I would have looked at the bare outline rather than the intimate content and decided that on first principles, it was impossible to carry the conclusion from the premises.

Which is of course absurd! It is pathological to even think you could have a useful view without understanding what you are talking about. Guessing was all you had.

I have to point out that the main substance of your reading consisted of a rather extreme view in a subject which is still being debated.

You have little knowledge of the state of understanding of the topic. Those who use it do.

Certain sections of positivists and others may have determined what they may believe is a correct interpretation.

Those who apply mathematics do not need to consult philosophers to know what is useful, and far less what is true!

I did very carefully indicate that you wouldn't be able to carry your view of "what is known" right across the board. There's WAY too much opposition to the view you hold to be correct, regarding the nature of the ideal concept of infinity and regarding how it may interact with our understanding of the world/reality/ontology/whatever you want to call it.

There is no "concept of infinity". Rather, most of mathematics deals with things that fail to be finite in different ways - ordinality, cardinality and measure. It is very useful to firmly drill into your brain that that is all "infinite" means: not finite. There is more than one way in which things can fail to be finite and the differences can't be ignored.

As a loose and less precise analogy, you might think of classifying life as bacteria and "not bacteria".

Much of this mathematics is very useful and impractical to do without. A fundamental example is the natural numbers. A slightly more advanced one is the real numbers. It turns out that infinite cardinality has importance to the foundations of mathematics, but I am digressing. See the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy - which I respect as a source on the foundations of mathematics! But, to be frank, the Wikipedia article is less dusty and more useful to learn about the ideas.

I'm sorry that you have become upset by our genuine differences in viewpoint.

Your "viewpoint" is one of arrogantly ignoring what is known and understood and overrating the value of uninformed opinions.

You're talking complete drivel, Elroch.

This does not say anything about me, only about your comprehension.

You say there's no concept of infinity? It seems that you would say anything to try to win a prize at the fairground. After telling me there's no concept of infinity, I don't need to look further.

This is a reading comprehension problem - I meant there is no single definition of "infinity". Indeed "infinity" is not a unique mathematical entitity. There are different context dependent entities labelled with this term.

I said that the general concept of infinity is that infinite (an adjective, so no longer a single entity) means "NOT finite". Finite is an adjective assocated with different definitions as a property in different contexts. For example, there is a definition of a finite set, and a different definition of a finite integral. The two are rather different. By applying the "NOT" operator, the definitions of infinite are also distinct in these two contexts,.

Maybe I over-estimated you.

Seems very unlikely. I have never observe you over-estimate someone who was not you.

Honestly, I can't see the profit in talking to someone like you obviously are. Right - there is no "profit". You need to find someone who will boost your ego.

Also, you've been relying on this ridiculous projection of "pathological" for a year or two now. Does it mean "someone who knows you're talking rubbish"? Look, we know that you're aligning yourself with a bunch of freaks. You call people who disagree with you "pathological". Anyone would be forgiven for assuming that you're mentally ill, coming out with stuff like that.

No, I use the word pathological because of your characteristics. If it any comfort, you are special - I don't use the word for many people.

playerafar

Opto disagreeing with Elroch means that Opto knows that Elroch is right.
And Octopus mentioned 'always plays the same theoretical London moves' ...
neat phrase!
And Dubrovnik's posts about chess statistics and AI are interesting!
And Opto now directly breaking the chess.com rules again.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Why people cut down birdhouses to make more birdhouses?

they should make them outta popsicle stix right ? why do ants eat their own house ?...my dad used2say cuz its better to have a full tummy & nowhere to sleep.

Elroch

@Optimissed, I am very sure that using the word "pathological" about the behaviour of a small number of people is not in any sense evidence of psychopathy, and I am sure you can't find any support for your claim. It is likely evidence of certain qualifications - ones that I don't have. That is the nature of evidence.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Opto disagreeing with Elroch means that Opto knows that Elroch is right.

wha-WHAT ?? ...omg sad

DiogenesDue
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed is correct, but you need a good location.

In an airplane cruising at the usual c. 35,000 feet on a clear day the horizon is more than 3 degrees below you - easily noticed without instruments - AND you can see the "bulge" in the region of the surface you can see (the horizon is a circle of radius around 368 kilometers, or curvature of around 6 degrees from one horizon to the opposite one).

On top of a mountain with a view of the sea on a clear day, the horizon may be nice and crisp and will be about one degree below you if the mountain is 1000m high. You probably need a theodolite to confirm the curvature, but this has the advantage of being precise and quantitative (and easy - that is a big angle to such a device).

A pretty direct (and very accessible) observation of curvature is to stand on a shore on a clear day and see objects beyond the horizon with the lower parts obstructed - ships, wind turbines, oil rigs.

35,000 is the most often listed altitude where the curvature is detectable to the naked eye, that is true. Note that you can infer curvature in the manner you mentioned, but you still cannot really see the curvature. There's a difference between seeing evidence of curvature and perceiving the actual curvature.

playerafar
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Opto disagreeing with Elroch means that Opto knows that Elroch is right.

wha-WHAT ?? ...omg sad

That is Opto's pattern. What he thinks is usually the reverse of what he claims.
But some of the time he does actually believe his own nonsense.

playerafar
DiogenesDue wrote:
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed is correct, but you need a good location.

In an airplane cruising at the usual c. 35,000 feet on a clear day the horizon is more than 3 degrees below you - easily noticed without instruments - AND you can see the "bulge" in the region of the surface you can see (the horizon is a circle of radius around 368 kilometers, or curvature of around 6 degrees from one horizon to the opposite one).

On top of a mountain with a view of the sea on a clear day, the horizon may be nice and crisp and will be about one degree below you if the mountain is 1000m high. You probably need a theodolite to confirm the curvature, but this has the advantage of being precise and quantitative (and easy - that is a big angle to such a device).

A pretty direct (and very accessible) observation of curvature is to stand on a shore on a clear day and see objects beyond the horizon with the lower parts obstructed - ships, wind turbines, oil rigs.

35,000 is the most often listed altitude where the curvature is detectable to the naked eye, that is true. Note that you can infer curvature in the manner you mentioned, but you still cannot really see the curvature.

To see the curvature - change through motion is useful.
Whether change in location or change in altitude.
But even from a few feet above the ocean well out to sea - one can see the horizon forms a circle.
Would a person imagine that there's nothing beyond the horizon?
On returning to land - you can see objects on the land becoming higher above that horizon. 
The continents didn't disappear because one travelled a few miles out to sea!
But some might be 'vulnerable' to that.

DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

to argue why the earth must be flat

it didnt help help that they could see the litehouse of alexandria from mount olympus. AND even the firelight atop the king pyramid (tho barely)...they say. making those viewing ?...thinking that the earth may a been as flat as doo's personality. i read where they employed (iknow iknow itsa dorky word) water-optical prisms to yackup the multiple for their very own viewing pleasure lol !

I already thoroughly debunked your lighthouse story the last time you posted it. The distance is almost 700 miles, 300+ miles beyond the longest straight line between high elevations it is possible to see.

DiogenesDue
playerafar wrote:

To see the curvature - change through motion is useful.
Whether change in location or change in altitude.
But even from a few feet above the ocean well out to sea - one can see the horizon forms a circle.
Would a person imagine that there's nothing beyond the horizon?On returning to land - you can see objects on the land becoming higher above that horizon. 
The continents didn't disappear because one travelled a few miles out to sea!But some might be 'vulnerable' to that.

These bolded bits are all proving my point. You perceive changes at the horizon, and because you know the earth is round, you think you perceive the actual curvature of the horizon yourself even at sea level. But you don't.

Elroch
DiogenesDue wrote:
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed is correct, but you need a good location.

In an airplane cruising at the usual c. 35,000 feet on a clear day the horizon is more than 3 degrees below you - easily noticed without instruments - AND you can see the "bulge" in the region of the surface you can see (the horizon is a circle of radius around 368 kilometers, or curvature of around 6 degrees from one horizon to the opposite one).

On top of a mountain with a view of the sea on a clear day, the horizon may be nice and crisp and will be about one degree below you if the mountain is 1000m high. You probably need a theodolite to confirm the curvature, but this has the advantage of being precise and quantitative (and easy - that is a big angle to such a device).

A pretty direct (and very accessible) observation of curvature is to stand on a shore on a clear day and see objects beyond the horizon with the lower parts obstructed - ships, wind turbines, oil rigs.

35,000 is the most often listed altitude where the curvature is detectable to the naked eye, that is true. Note that you can infer curvature in the manner you mentioned, but you still cannot really see the curvature. There's a difference between seeing evidence of curvature and perceiving the actual curvature.

Actually there is one class of example that you should be happy with. What you need is a very long straight line on the surface, so you can see the end of it bends. The effect is geometrically very striking because perspective magnifies the bend at a distance.

Here is one suitable straight line for observing - Lake Pontchartrain Bridge - 38.5 km long.

DiogenesDue
Elroch wrote:

Actually there is one class of example that you should be happy with. What you need is a very long straight line on the surface, so you can see the end of it bends. The effect is geometrically very striking because perspective magnifies the bend at a distance.

Here is one suitable straight line for observing - Lake Pontchartrain Bridge - 38.5 km long.

Yes, when you add a straight line reference, you can make the determination. Note that the horizon behind the bridge still looks flat. Kind of the reverse of the example of two parallel lines that look curved until you place a ruler against them.

Elroch

Well the horizon is always a circle - only the elevation varies depending on your altitude. Unless you are at a very high altitude, you need a large part of it to reveal curvature. It's kind of an odd way to look for the curvature of the Earth (eg if you look at a large circle on a flat plane, from an altitude, you get the same effect - it's nothing to do with the curvature of the surface).

playerafar
DiogenesDue wrote:
playerafar wrote:

To see the curvature - change through motion is useful.
Whether change in location or change in altitude.
But even from a few feet above the ocean well out to sea - one can see the horizon forms a circle.
Would a person imagine that there's nothing beyond the horizon?On returning to land - you can see objects on the land becoming higher above that horizon. 
The continents didn't disappear because one travelled a few miles out to sea!But some might be 'vulnerable' to that.

These bolded bits are all proving my point. You perceive changes at the horizon, and because you know the earth is round, you think you perceive the actual curvature of the horizon yourself even at sea level. But you don't.

that last point is actually ambiguous.
You see the horizon 'all around you'. Its circular.
That particular peception is real. One does see it.
But if one isn't in motion - then you won't perceive the 'circle' or 'curvature' beyond the horizon.
The point is its spherical. Not just curved.
This means different lines on the surface are at angles to each other.
You see the horizon 'all around' and that's both obvious and real and you do see it.
But the line at right angles to that - the curvature 'beyond' the horizon ... you can't see that because the surface is convex not concave.
Unless you move. Then you do see it when there's land or ships.
@DiogenesDue - we could end up disagreeing on something we actually agree about. It happens when one or both parties think the other is actually talking about something else.