Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of playerafar
Elroch wrote:
XianyunLi wrote:
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:

The much lower Syzygy number must involve counting only the positions stored, which are then multipled by almost 8 for symmetries on the board. 52234 * 8 = 417872 (an upper bound because of the "almost"). Note that the only moves that reduce the multiple to less than 8 are those where all three pieces are on a diagonal, so that one of the reflections does not affect the position.

Trying to match Syzygy positions to what you always thought were positions is quite awkward.

There's not only the factor of 8 or 2 for board symmetry to take into account but you also have to divide by the factorials of the numbers of sets of repeated pieces of the same colour and type (I'm not sure if there isn't also an extra complication when the repeated pieces are bishops). At any rate you won't get correct adjustment for symmetric positions.

Not need to worry about that for KkB!

The percentages of wins, frustrated wins, etc. are, I believe very close to correct.

I would expect Syzygy to be exactly correct.

Correct figures are available on the ICGA site for basic rules, but they don't cover the same range as the Syzygy site (no 7 man, no 5-1 and a few other specific missing classifications with < 7). At least that was the case last time I looked.

Add in another factor of 2 for colour to get an upper bound of 835744 which I observe is lower than either number posted above.

Ah, I see now. Your numbers weren't legal positions, as they failed to remove those with a king in check and not to move.

Exactly.

Don't ask me what the point is of counting positions where the side not to move can be in check from a bishop but not by a king. It apparently has something to do with alternate solving. 

We still don't have that number of legal positions that is of more interest (to me at least) than the number of diagrams.

The number of legal KBK positions under either basic or competition rules is 934456 (reported semi-legal positions as defined here, but I think in this case "semi-legal" corresponds with "legal").

That can actually be worked out by hand for KBK, but if you want to perform the exercise wholesale youl'd need to write a mickey mouse javascript or something unless you can come up with a simpler expression than I did.

Yes, I could either work it out by hand or more likely by computer, or debug Gemini's attempt.

Bruh why are you guys making each message really long???

We get paid by the word.

Hahahhaahah.
Great post !!
😁🤣😎👌

Avatar of OctopusOnSteroids

Nobody has offered me the contract so Ill be on a strike until the pay me too. Not a word until then

Avatar of playerafar

When evaluating positions at the beginning of the game many might say :
'That's okay. Just don't make illegal moves to generate positions.'
Others: 'and don't bother to count illegal positions with 32 pieces on board - and 31 pieces and so on.'
But those ideas miss points: And they are 'game tree' ideas.
Point: Does John Tromp's number factor in various illegal positions other than maximum 32 pieces and maximum of 2 opposite-colored Kings and things like that?
I don't know. Maybe the precise derivation of his number 4.8 x 10^44 possible legal chess positions as an upper bound - is very publically available.
Point: The current impossibility of solving chess is based on that number.
And three years of forum conversation here are based on that JT number too.
-----------------
To make progress - maybe its a good time to look at that derivation. 
Even if it was looked at before.
No I haven't looked into it. Or not yet. Don't have time for everything.
Point: better ideas about what the real actual number is of legal chess positions to be solved that really have play in them. Instead of the larger JT number.
-------------------------
From the front of the game is much harder.
But generalizations can still be made - and computers can zap positions that need zero ply depth to count them.
A 32 piece position can't have any promotions in it. Its impossible.
Because promotions need captures. As to the ratio - that's not simple.
So 32-piece positions can only have the original material forces as on move 1.
31 piece. For now - zero to three promotions are possible in such positions.
But there are other constraints too on 31-piece. Constraints - again - as to what is legal.
Which computers can use. 
-----------------
What might actually be solved before the year 2040?
1) total number of checkmate positions? (including mate in one versus those already mate?)
2) total number of stalemate positions.
3) total number of positions with lone king against king with material. Maybe solved already?

Avatar of playerafar
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

Nobody has offered me the contract so Ill be on a strike until the pay me too. Not a word until then

Maybe they'll pay you under the table. You didn't know ...??

Avatar of playerafar
Elroch wrote:
playerafar wrote:
.Illegal unless the bishop is a promotion bishop with black to move.

i.e. 100% legal.

Actually - there are illegal checks by a bishp from a corner square.
When I talk to AI about this it makes a million blunders.
But just now during such a talk - I realized it.

How could a white pawn promote at a1 or h1?
Note that the white King is 'out of range' to have 'discovered' the bishop check - which would be also impossible with the black King at b2.
It can't !! So there couldn't be a white bishop checking from those squares because it has no legal way to get to those squares with only three men on board.
Its illegal! As would be black bishops checking from a8 or h8 in various configurations.
So it is a third type of illegality with three men on board. 
Peculiarities and limitations of bishops.
(Yes obviously and of course there could be exceptions where the white king 'uncovered' the check - but that's 'covered' in the diagram.)
Anyway - more ways for the solving computer to 'take prisoners'.
More prisoners can be added. Material added that does not block the bishop check or couldn't have unblocked it would also generate illegal positions. Is there an en passant that would 'work'?
I think there is. Black King at f6. white discover checks with P to d5ch.
Black blocks with e7-e5 so white goes P x e6 e.p. 'disappearance check'. 
The bishop is still legally checking from a1.
(But that's with more material and is one of a low percentage of exceptions.)
Anyway - another attack on that 10^45 number. (which is 'the fortress')
At first - AI didn't get it about a1. Maybe there's a pun in there somewhere.

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Bruh why are you guys making each message really long???

cuz theyre lonely. & they analyze to annoyance. & they repeat themself by accident cuz theyre old.

Avatar of Elroch

Wasn't there a counter-claim that the longerst forced mate occurs at a relatively small number of pieces, because with increasing numbers, there is less chance of there not being a short win if there is a long one?

Avatar of StandStarter
Elroch wrote:

Wasn't there a counter-claim that the longest forced mate occurs at a relatively small number of pieces, because with increasing numbers, there is less chance of there not being a short win if there is a long one?

From Google/Co-pilot "Yes, you're correct; the longest forced checkmate sequences, or "mate-in-n" problems, are often found with a relatively small number of pieces, and the reason is that as the number of pieces increases, the complexity of the game grows exponentially, making it harder to find and maintain a long, forced mate." Not sure if it is accurate though.

Avatar of playerafar
StandStarter wrote:
Elroch wrote:

Wasn't there a counter-claim that the longest forced mate occurs at a relatively small number of pieces, because with increasing numbers, there is less chance of there not being a short win if there is a long one?

From Google/Co-pilot "Yes, you're correct; the longest forced checkmate sequences, or "mate-in-n" problems, are often found with a relatively small number of pieces, and the reason is that as the number of pieces increases, the complexity of the game grows exponentially, making it harder to find and maintain a long, forced mate." Not sure if it is accurate though.

Which isn't the same thing.
With more pieces - the complexity could reduce - because there is more power on the board for one or both of the kings to get mated with. But more pieces often mean more defense instead. 
The issue of 'lopsided' comes in. The more lopsided - the shorter the mate. Often. 
I've seen a crazy-looking mate in 25 but I don't have it handy. Might be able to dig it up.

Avatar of playerafar
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Bruh why are you guys making each message really long???

cuz theyre lonely. & they analyze to annoyance. & they repeat themself by accident cuz theyre old.

Hi Lola!
Hahahahaah.
You left out: Talking is what happens in forums.
And - some points need more qualifying.
And - people don't have all day for one liners back and forth ...
A few 'longer posts' can actually take far less login time than little one-liners all day.
Its a paradox!
My next post will be a one liner. I promise!

Avatar of playerafar
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Bruh why are you guys making each message really long???

cuz theyre lonely. & they analyze to annoyance. & they repeat themself by accident cuz theyre old.

Lola there's a chess number of positons. 10^45. Even Chuck Norris couldn't solve it.

Avatar of StandStarter

I enjoy making/reading long posts, helps me learn and understand things. Also helps me understand English slightly better.

Avatar of MrRunex

Can someone teach me chess up to elo 2000??

Avatar of playerafar
StandStarter wrote:

I enjoy making/reading long posts, helps me learn and understand things. Also helps me understand English slightly better.

Your English is good though.

Avatar of StandStarter
playerafar wrote:
StandStarter wrote:

I enjoy making/reading long posts, helps me learn and understand things. Also helps me understand English slightly better.

Your English is good though.

My understanding of sentences is subpar. I can barely get two sentences into the conversations you and the others have. It's difficult for me at least.

Avatar of XianyunLi
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Bruh why are you guys making each message really long???

cuz theyre lonely. & they analyze to annoyance. & they repeat themself by accident cuz theyre old.

You guys were actually lonely?

Avatar of StandStarter
XianyunLi wrote:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Bruh why are you guys making each message really long???

cuz theyre lonely. & they analyze to annoyance. & they repeat themself by accident cuz theyre old.

You guys were actually lonely?

No that's just supposed to be a jab at the people consistently interacting in this forum with long messages.

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Lola there's a chess number of positons. 10^45. Even Chuck Norris couldn't solve it.

i luv ! chuck norse. but i like brad pitt better when he fights bruce lee in once upon a time in hollywood.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
XianyunLi wrote:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Bruh why are you guys making each message really long???

cuz theyre lonely. & they analyze to annoyance. & they repeat themself by accident cuz theyre old.

You guys were actually lonely?

Lola is the little girl in school that only hangs around with the boys hoping they see her as worth talking to. Over the years she has found that poking and prodding the people she seeks approval from is the only way she can consistently produce responses. This phenom is known colloquially as "daddy issues", but of course it runs much deeper than that and it's better not to be that dismissive of people's struggles.

Avatar of playerafar
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Lola there's a chess number of positons. 10^45. Even Chuck Norris couldn't solve it.

i luv ! chuck norse. but i like brad pitt better when he fights bruce lee in once upon a time in hollywood.

That was a great scene.
Chuck 'Norse'. He probably has nordic roots.
When Chuck N does a pushup - the world goes down.