Chess with Maths

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Avatar of V-A-C
StockOfHey wrote:

If we also treat them as kings, they are not allowed to capture the other... Is not it?

Well if you read carefully I got the same doubt When I thought about it

But we placed two queens on chessboard note that is assumed to be default case of hypothetical situation without consideration of king

Avatar of StockOfHey

Is it good to paraphrase it this way? "How many possible configuration such that a Queen would not be able to capture the other Queen of opposite color?"

Avatar of V-A-C
StockOfHey wrote:

In how many ways two queens shall be placed into 8×8 chessboard such that they never get cancel by each other ( there are only two queens on board place , assume white plays first ).

I found the words "that they never get cancel by each other". It is hard to get... If you did not combine the definition of the second sentence "assume white plays first", it is hard to know the real definition of the word cancel...

There are two definition:

1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place.

2. (of a factor or circumstance) neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another).

The first one says that, capturing a piece is included in the problem... Because, if you cancel the effects of the other piece, you must capture it while the ones who capture remain hence "they did not cancel each other"...

The second one says that, capturing a piece is not included in the problem... Because, if you capture the other, it will not exist...

Because most of us agreed that the second definition is what we are talking about... I guess, the second definition seems more practical...

Well as per your question

I have used the word cancel because if I would write capture then definitely some will come up and will say capturing has has only one ways

Also capturing is the choice whether the queens would like to do capture or not

As per your concern I will edit question for less confusions

Avatar of V-A-C
StockOfHey wrote:

Is it good to paraphrase it this way? "How many possible configuration such that a Queen would not be able to capture the other Queen of opposite color?"

Yes

Avatar of StockOfHey

Thank You for sharing your thoughts... I am glad...

Avatar of V-A-C
StockOfHey wrote:

Thank You for sharing your thoughts... I am glad...

Thanks to you also . Discussion makes more corrections if there is mistake.

Avatar of CoDCVN
Optimissed đã viết:

There are 42 ways the Qs can be placed with the white Q on a1. There are 42 ways if the white Q is on a4. If the white Q is on f4, there are 38. Logically, for all the edge squares there are 42. If on b7 there are 40, so a pattern is developing. If we divide the board into concentric tracks, the outer track contains squares all of which are 42. The next track inwards 40, the next track inwards, 38.

The final track is the centre four squares. Taking one at random, d4, there are 5x6 +6 = 36

So we have 4x36 + 12x38 + 20x40 + 28x42 = 2576

Double it and we have the answer.

5152

This is (kinda) wrong. The answer is 2576 you dont need to double it heres why

I think the reason you double it is to count the inverse variation of this position. But you already count that before when you considered the 4 square intermost layer queen position. So you dont need to double the answer to count the inverse variation of a position, because its already coumted before Therefore, the answer is 2576.

Avatar of CoDCVN

Dont tell me the problem is not the question its the wording of that question

Avatar of CoDCVN

The fact that i can grab a blue-colored queen from a 4 player chess board and put it in here is even worse

Avatar of CoDCVN
Mr_Mathematician đã viết:
StockOfHey wrote:

In how many ways two queens shall be placed into 8×8 chessboard such that they never get cancel by each other ( there are only two queens on board place , assume white plays first ).

I found the words "that they never get cancel by each other". It is hard to get... If you did not combine the definition of the second sentence "assume white plays first", it is hard to know the real definition of the word cancel...

There are two definition:

1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place.

2. (of a factor or circumstance) neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another).

The first one says that, capturing a piece is included in the problem... Because, if you cancel the effects of the other piece, you must capture it while the ones who capture remain hence "they did not cancel each other"...

The second one says that, capturing a piece is not included in the problem... Because, if you capture the other, it will not exist...

Because most of us agreed that the second definition is what we are talking about... I guess, the second definition seems more practical...

Well as per your question

I have used the word cancel because if I would write capture then definitely some will come up and will say capturing has has only one ways

Also capturing is the choice whether the queens would like to do capture or not

As per your concern I will edit question for less confusions

I think you can change the cancel to "in a line of sight" just to be clear and please tell me what queen color is being used in this puzzle

Avatar of Ashvath23
Atharv8849 wrote:
Ashvath23 wrote:
Atharv8849 wrote:

Many people might think what is use of that but in reality software engineer need such calculations

Yes!

Hello ashvath

Nice to meet my all friends after long time

happy.png

Avatar of Ashvath23
CoDCVN wrote:
Optimissed đã viết:

There are 42 ways the Qs can be placed with the white Q on a1. There are 42 ways if the white Q is on a4. If the white Q is on f4, there are 38. Logically, for all the edge squares there are 42. If on b7 there are 40, so a pattern is developing. If we divide the board into concentric tracks, the outer track contains squares all of which are 42. The next track inwards 40, the next track inwards, 38.

The final track is the centre four squares. Taking one at random, d4, there are 5x6 +6 = 36

So we have 4x36 + 12x38 + 20x40 + 28x42 = 2576

Double it and we have the answer.

5152

This is (kinda) wrong. The answer is 2576 you dont need to double it heres why

I think the reason you double it is to count the inverse variation of this position. But you already count that before when you considered the 4 square intermost layer queen position. So you dont need to double the answer to count the inverse variation of a position, because its already coumted before Therefore, the answer is 2576.

The reason why we need to double the answer because you need to calculate for both the queens . For example, case-1

Case - 2

In this two cases the position of the two queens differ. For this example we can conclude that in one situation there are two possibilities . Like changing the colour of the two queen.

Avatar of V-A-C
CoDCVN wrote:
Mr_Mathematician đã viết:
StockOfHey wrote:

In how many ways two queens shall be placed into 8×8 chessboard such that they never get cancel by each other ( there are only two queens on board place , assume white plays first ).

I found the words "that they never get cancel by each other". It is hard to get... If you did not combine the definition of the second sentence "assume white plays first", it is hard to know the real definition of the word cancel...

There are two definition:

1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place.

2. (of a factor or circumstance) neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another).

The first one says that, capturing a piece is included in the problem... Because, if you cancel the effects of the other piece, you must capture it while the ones who capture remain hence "they did not cancel each other"...

The second one says that, capturing a piece is not included in the problem... Because, if you capture the other, it will not exist...

Because most of us agreed that the second definition is what we are talking about... I guess, the second definition seems more practical...

Well as per your question

I have used the word cancel because if I would write capture then definitely some will come up and will say capturing has has only one ways

Also capturing is the choice whether the queens would like to do capture or not

As per your concern I will edit question for less confusions

I think you can change the cancel to "in a line of sight" just to be clear and please tell me what queen color is being used in this puzzle

Its clear that two queens of same color cannot capture or cancel

If the game has 2 queens you have to count for the both first and second that's the reason answer get doubled .

As you know chess board have coordinates so placing on that coordinates from any of the sides are totally different positions

Avatar of StockOfHey

Yeah... I also agree... Although you might not agree because dictionary existed at the first place, we have to respect the definition of the one giving riddle... I know you have concern for him, but he had already given a nice definition about it so it might be also good to just take it as it is... (Cancel means possibilities of capture.)

Avatar of StockOfHey

Because of that, it is good if you double it because White Queen captures Black Queen and on the other hand Black Queen captures White Queen...

Avatar of StockOfHey

I think I understood it this way... q If capturing a piece made them cancel each other hence both of them are removed from the board, How many possible ways that both of them are not removed from the board if you use a turn based movement assuming that you need to use one move only while the other one would not be able to but the other one can also do the same at the different scenario... q

Avatar of MARattigan
Mr_Mathematician wrote:
CoDCVN wrote:
Mr_Mathematician đã viết:
StockOfHey wrote:

In how many ways two queens shall be placed into 8×8 chessboard such that they never get cancel by each other ( there are only two queens on board place , assume white plays first ).

I found the words "that they never get cancel by each other". It is hard to get... If you did not combine the definition of the second sentence "assume white plays first", it is hard to know the real definition of the word cancel...

There are two definition:

1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place.

2. (of a factor or circumstance) neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another).

The first one says that, capturing a piece is included in the problem... Because, if you cancel the effects of the other piece, you must capture it while the ones who capture remain hence "they did not cancel each other"...

The second one says that, capturing a piece is not included in the problem... Because, if you capture the other, it will not exist...

Because most of us agreed that the second definition is what we are talking about... I guess, the second definition seems more practical...

Well as per your question

I have used the word cancel because if I would write capture then definitely some will come up and will say capturing has has only one ways

Also capturing is the choice whether the queens would like to do capture or not

As per your concern I will edit question for less confusions

I think you can change the cancel to "in a line of sight" just to be clear and please tell me what queen color is being used in this puzzle

Its clear that two queens of same color cannot capture or cancel

It's clear they cannot capture. Whether they can cancel is anybody's guess, it depends what you intended to mean by the term. If you intended to mean just "capture" then two queens of the same colour satisfy your criterion wherever they are placed, so all such diagrams should be included in the count unless you explicitly say the queens are of opposite colour. 

If you consider queens of opposite colour, then the answer would depend on what you intended by the phrase "such that they never get cancel by each other". The inclusion of the word "never" seems to imply that the game continues. In that case, assuming "cancel" is synonymous with "capture", there are 0 diagrams where that is the case in all possible continuations (though it could be the case from any diagram if e.g. a draw has been agreed). 

Edit: I notice you have have clarified that "cancel" is to be taken as an approximate synonym of "capture" and removed the reference to White having the move. The question is probably about only the diagram and any game continuation is irrelevant, in which case

In how many ways can a queen of each colour be placed on an otherwise empty chessboard in such a way that neither queen occupies a square attacked by the other?

would have been clearer.

Edit2: Just realised that my first two paragraphs don't address the question as currently posed. Any position with only two queens on the board is necessarily dead, because neither side can checkmate. Therefore neither side has any possibility of capture, because a dead position immediately terminates the game. So all such positions satisfy your criterion.

The correct answer to the question as currently posed is therefore 64.63.(1+½+½)=8064.

If the game has 2 queens you have to count for the both first and second that's the reason answer get doubled .

No. You may have to change your id. 

As you know chess board have coordinates so placing on that coordinates from any of the sides are totally different positions

Avatar of V-A-C
MARattigan wrote:
Mr_Mathematician wrote:
CoDCVN wrote:
Mr_Mathematician đã viết:
StockOfHey wrote:

In how many ways two queens shall be placed into 8×8 chessboard such that they never get cancel by each other ( there are only two queens on board place , assume white plays first ).

I found the words "that they never get cancel by each other". It is hard to get... If you did not combine the definition of the second sentence "assume white plays first", it is hard to know the real definition of the word cancel...

There are two definition:

1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place.

2. (of a factor or circumstance) neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another).

The first one says that, capturing a piece is included in the problem... Because, if you cancel the effects of the other piece, you must capture it while the ones who capture remain hence "they did not cancel each other"...

The second one says that, capturing a piece is not included in the problem... Because, if you capture the other, it will not exist...

Because most of us agreed that the second definition is what we are talking about... I guess, the second definition seems more practical...

Well as per your question

I have used the word cancel because if I would write capture then definitely some will come up and will say capturing has has only one ways

Also capturing is the choice whether the queens would like to do capture or not

As per your concern I will edit question for less confusions

I think you can change the cancel to "in a line of sight" just to be clear and please tell me what queen color is being used in this puzzle

Its clear that two queens of same color cannot capture or cancel

It's clear they cannot capture. Whether they can cancel is anybody's guess, it depends what you intended to mean by the term. If you intended to mean just "capture" then two queens of the same colour satisfy your criterion wherever they are placed, so all such diagrams should be included in the count unless you explicitly say the queens are of opposite colour. 

If you consider queens of opposite colour, then the answer would depend on what you intended by the phrase "such that they never get cancel by each other". The inclusion of the word "never" seems to imply that the game continues. In that case, assuming "cancel" is synonymous with "capture", there are 0 diagrams where that is the case in all possible continuations (though it could be the case from any diagram if e.g. a draw has been agreed). 

Edit: I notice you have have clarified that "cancel" is to be taken as an approximate synonym of "capture" and removed the reference to White having the move. The question is probably about only the diagram and any game continuation is irrelevant, in which case

In how many ways can a queen of each colour be placed on an otherwise empty chessboard in such a way that neither queen occupies a square attacked by the other?

would have been clearer.

If the game has 2 queens you have to count for the both first and second that's the reason answer get doubled .

No. You may have to change your id. 

As you know chess board have coordinates so placing on that coordinates from any of the sides are totally different positions

I apologize if this question really created such confusion

But if I really mark your statement

"In how many ways can a queen of each colour be placed on an otherwise empty chessboard in such a way that neither queen occupies a square attacked by the other?"

Then we shall consider all the colors VIBGYOR

Then in this we will consider 7 different colors queen on board which was not in questions

By the way thanks For next time I will make sure to correct my sentence in more efficient way.

Avatar of V-A-C
MARattigan wrote:
Mr_Mathematician wrote:
CoDCVN wrote:
Mr_Mathematician đã viết:
StockOfHey wrote:

In how many ways two queens shall be placed into 8×8 chessboard such that they never get cancel by each other ( there are only two queens on board place , assume white plays first ).

I found the words "that they never get cancel by each other". It is hard to get... If you did not combine the definition of the second sentence "assume white plays first", it is hard to know the real definition of the word cancel...

There are two definition:

1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place.

2. (of a factor or circumstance) neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another).

The first one says that, capturing a piece is included in the problem... Because, if you cancel the effects of the other piece, you must capture it while the ones who capture remain hence "they did not cancel each other"...

The second one says that, capturing a piece is not included in the problem... Because, if you capture the other, it will not exist...

Because most of us agreed that the second definition is what we are talking about... I guess, the second definition seems more practical...

Well as per your question

I have used the word cancel because if I would write capture then definitely some will come up and will say capturing has has only one ways

Also capturing is the choice whether the queens would like to do capture or not

As per your concern I will edit question for less confusions

I think you can change the cancel to "in a line of sight" just to be clear and please tell me what queen color is being used in this puzzle

Its clear that two queens of same color cannot capture or cancel

It's clear they cannot capture. Whether they can cancel is anybody's guess, it depends what you intended to mean by the term. If you intended to mean just "capture" then two queens of the same colour satisfy your criterion wherever they are placed, so all such diagrams should be included in the count unless you explicitly say the queens are of opposite colour. 

If you consider queens of opposite colour, then the answer would depend on what you intended by the phrase "such that they never get cancel by each other". The inclusion of the word "never" seems to imply that the game continues. In that case, assuming "cancel" is synonymous with "capture", there are 0 diagrams where that is the case in all possible continuations (though it could be the case from any diagram if e.g. a draw has been agreed). 

Edit: I notice you have have clarified that "cancel" is to be taken as an approximate synonym of "capture" and removed the reference to White having the move. The question is probably about only the diagram and any game continuation is irrelevant, in which case

In how many ways can a queen of each colour be placed on an otherwise empty chessboard in such a way that neither queen occupies a square attacked by the other?

would have been clearer.

If the game has 2 queens you have to count for the both first and second that's the reason answer get doubled .

No. You may have to change your id. 

As you know chess board have coordinates so placing on that coordinates from any of the sides are totally different positions

Also the reason for doubling and answer without changing id is we are placing two queens one by one outside, it's not a chess tournament .

Avatar of V-A-C
MARattigan wrote:
Mr_Mathematician wrote:
CoDCVN wrote:
Mr_Mathematician đã viết:
StockOfHey wrote:

In how many ways two queens shall be placed into 8×8 chessboard such that they never get cancel by each other ( there are only two queens on board place , assume white plays first ).

I found the words "that they never get cancel by each other". It is hard to get... If you did not combine the definition of the second sentence "assume white plays first", it is hard to know the real definition of the word cancel...

There are two definition:

1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place.

2. (of a factor or circumstance) neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another).

The first one says that, capturing a piece is included in the problem... Because, if you cancel the effects of the other piece, you must capture it while the ones who capture remain hence "they did not cancel each other"...

The second one says that, capturing a piece is not included in the problem... Because, if you capture the other, it will not exist...

Because most of us agreed that the second definition is what we are talking about... I guess, the second definition seems more practical...

Well as per your question

I have used the word cancel because if I would write capture then definitely some will come up and will say capturing has has only one ways

Also capturing is the choice whether the queens would like to do capture or not

As per your concern I will edit question for less confusions

I think you can change the cancel to "in a line of sight" just to be clear and please tell me what queen color is being used in this puzzle

Its clear that two queens of same color cannot capture or cancel

It's clear they cannot capture. Whether they can cancel is anybody's guess, it depends what you intended to mean by the term. If you intended to mean just "capture" then two queens of the same colour satisfy your criterion wherever they are placed, so all such diagrams should be included in the count unless you explicitly say the queens are of opposite colour. 

If you consider queens of opposite colour, then the answer would depend on what you intended by the phrase "such that they never get cancel by each other". The inclusion of the word "never" seems to imply that the game continues. In that case, assuming "cancel" is synonymous with "capture", there are 0 diagrams where that is the case in all possible continuations (though it could be the case from any diagram if e.g. a draw has been agreed). 

Edit: I notice you have have clarified that "cancel" is to be taken as an approximate synonym of "capture" and removed the reference to White having the move. The question is probably about only the diagram and any game continuation is irrelevant, in which case

In how many ways can a queen of each colour be placed on an otherwise empty chessboard in such a way that neither queen occupies a square attacked by the other?

would have been clearer.

If the game has 2 queens you have to count for the both first and second that's the reason answer get doubled .

No. You may have to change your id. 

As you know chess board have coordinates so placing on that coordinates from any of the sides are totally different positions

Also pieces got canceled or captured then that case counted you have to count others too

TOTAL cases