Can anyone become fluent in Arabic or is it only achievable by a certain group of people with a certain set of natural abilities? I've seen people struggling to formulate simple expressions. And yet there are whole countries with populations that speak it fluently. Are they all gifted?
Debate Topic: Can ANYBODY reach 2000?
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Kattron wrote:
Ofcourse it's genetic. Some people have just much better functioning brains and others can't remember all these starting moves. And can't progress anymore. It's a bit like take for example hard running. If you'd train your entire life, you might reach top 3% in your country. Because many people don't sport so much and are older. But to become an Usain bolt. You'd need to have an extraordinary physical body, the best legs for running in the world, a perfect health, be young, much luck in life, trained your entire life and then you are the world champion or rating 2000 (99,9%) whatever right.
To become Usain Bolt you need to be special. But Usain translates to +2800 FIDE. 2000 on chess.com which is about 1700 FIDE is a pretty good, but not an elite rating. Can everyone become pretty good? Maybe not, but if you start young, if you are dedicated and not untalented the odds are in your favour.
Apr 13, 2023
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#24
Is there any actual research on this?
Same as when we discussed whether or not an adult can become a GM. There's no list of when every GM started to play chess, so we don't really know.
And same regarding learning methods: there's no research to show which methods work and which don't.
Basically, I don't know whether a typical person can achieve a 2000 rating with enough effort and work or whether most people will face a hard barrier due to their brain wiring. And I'm not sure anyone else knows for sure either.
Maybe we could think about what data we'd need to test this out? What if we had a set of players who were all the same Elo and all measured to be typical in terms of IQ etc, and then we set them all to do the exact same practice methods for the same amount of time every week. And then, after a year, we measure their rate of progress. And keep doing that until some hit 2000. If everyone is close to 2000 Elo, I'd say that was a good case to show anyone could hit 2000. If some were hitting 2000 whilst others, with the same effort and technique and time, were still around 800 or whatever, then that would seem to indicate that something else was required other than work. And depending upon percentages we could assess whether it's a rare set of requirements or not.
I also wonder if data like this already exists somewhere, like from a Soviet chess school or something.
Interesting topic. My initial gut reaction would be that some people could never get 2000, but that many could - however the amount of effort required for most would be practically implausible, whereas for others they could obtain that rating within a realistic timeframe without unreasonable effort. And this assumes people starting chess as children. I think if we are talking adults starting then far more would find 2000 impossible or would take unrealistic amounts of effort.
long_quach wrote:
Jenium wrote:
Can anyone become fluent in Arabic or is it only achievable by a certain group of people with a certain set of natural abilities? I've seen people struggling to formulate simple expressions. And yet there are whole countries with populations that speak it fluently. Are they all gifted?
What the heck are you talking about.
Learning Arabic in a native country is different from learning Arabic as a foreign language.
If you take 5 minutes and think really hard, you might understand the analogy to chess.
DelightfulLiberty wrote:
Same as when we discussed whether or not an adult can become a GM. There's no list of when every GM started to play chess, so we don't really know.
The fact that basically every GM we know of started out as a kid, is pretty telling. I think I discussed this question a while ago, and someone came up with one(!) champion who lived about 100 years ago who started out as an adult... So starting with chess in your 30s and becoming a GM is probably as likely as becoming a math genius after getting hit on the head (which apparently hapened once to a dude).
Apr 13, 2023
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#27
Not everyone would be able to even get to 1200, so 2000 for everyone is a daydream.
Apr 13, 2023
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#28
Jenium wrote:
DelightfulLiberty wrote:
Same as when we discussed whether or not an adult can become a GM. There's no list of when every GM started to play chess, so we don't really know.
The fact that basically every GM we know of started out as a kid, is pretty telling. I think I discussed this question a while ago, and someone came up with one(!) champion who lived about 100 years ago who started out as an adult... So starting with chess in your 30s and becoming a GM is probably as likely as becoming a math genius after getting hit on the head (which apparently hapened once to a dude).
Agreed. Just wish we had the data. After all, there's a big difference between unlikely and impossible. And even between a little unlikely, and massively unlikely. But yeah, it's unlikely for sure.
A lot of thought provoking responses here. I appreciate it, everybody! It seems like people are split. Some say yea and the others nay. Only time will tell. I wish you all well on your chess journey.
As for me, i'm still not convinced that "anybody" can achieve that level, but I would never try to discourage or dissuade others from trying. I'm certainly going to try and as it goes, i'm a horrible chess player. But i'm hard-headed and dedicated. Hopefully, that's enough to carry me to my goals.
Kattron wrote:
Ofcourse it's genetic. Some people have just much better functioning brains and others can't remember all these starting moves. And can't progress anymore. It's a bit like take for example hard running. If you'd train your entire life, you might reach top 3% in your country. Because many people don't sport so much and are older. But to become an Usain bolt. You'd need to have an extraordinary physical body, the best legs for running in the world, a perfect health, be young, much luck in life, trained your entire life and then you are the world champion or rating 2000 (99,9%) whatever right.
What makes you think that "remembering starting moves" is necessary? I'm around 2k on here and am pretty confident that I could play any openings and still be around that level.
I'd say that most people COULD reach 2000. However, for some it may require years of spending all their free time on chess, which would rule out a lot of people. I doubt there's really anything genetic about it, but whether your average person wants to spend hours a day studying chess is another matter.
Apr 13, 2023
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#36
neatgreatfire wrote:
I'd say that most people COULD reach 2000. However, for some it may require years of spending all their free time on chess, which would rule out a lot of people. I doubt there's really anything genetic about it, but whether your average person wants to spend hours a day studying chess is another matter.
How much is 'all their free time' in hours? I mean, most adults probably only have a couple hours total free time a day, but I can't imagine that most people could get anywhere near 2000 on just 2 hours a day.
Apr 13, 2023
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#37
Henry_Urbanek wrote:
DelightfulLiberty wrote:
neatgreatfire wrote:
I'd say that most people COULD reach 2000. However, for some it may require years of spending all their free time on chess, which would rule out a lot of people. I doubt there's really anything genetic about it, but whether your average person wants to spend hours a day studying chess is another matter.
How much is 'all their free time' in hours? I mean, most adults probably only have a couple hours total free time a day, but I can't imagine that most people could get anywhere near 2000 on just 2 hours a day.
I play 2 hours, on school days less, yet I feel that I am on pace for 2000 @DelightfulLiberty
That seems amazing to me. Well done 
I believe that anyone that enjoys the game has the ability to go from 200 to 1200, they have to put in work, play a lot, study openings, tactics, and much more. I don't know that people can just naturally reach 2000. People of many ratings say I play like a 1300 on a physical chess board, but my elo has only been 700-900 between everything for a long time. Ego and pride often affects these things and I'll go on a losing streak of 20 games then win 20. I don't believe those games should all count against people's elo, but maybe the streaks or level of play. I can play like a 1300 but I make 2 blunders back to back and it's game over. I don't think that the judging of rating is completely fair and many people would be higher.
Chess is a difficult game. It's made easier, though, by having regular access to quality instruction and high-level analysis tools. It also takes a lot of work, that should be (ideally) structured in formal way, with lesson plans, progress assessments, and so on.
For example, I'm beginning my journey into learning American Sign Language. I've learned some basics from YouTube and such ... but to really become proficient in it? I'm preparing to enroll in a 4-year program, taught by accredited instructors from the Deaf community.
This is similar to chess - if you truly want to become proficient in it, taking regular lessons from a titled master is one of the most productive paths (assuming you have the time and finances to do it - which are both luxuries that many players, unfortunately, don't have) ...
Ofcourse it's genetic. Some people have just much better functioning brains and others can't remember all these starting moves. And can't progress anymore. It's a bit like take for example hard running. If you'd train your entire life, you might reach top 3% in your country. Because many people don't sport so much and are older. But to become an Usain bolt. You'd need to have an extraordinary physical body, the best legs for running in the world, a perfect health, be young, much luck in life, trained your entire life and then you are the world champion or rating 2000 (99,9%) whatever right.
I get what you're trying to say but in my opinion those analogies that you gave would match up with 2700 GMs not 2000. Usain Bolt would be like trying to become Magnus.