Interesting stuff Wuehler, thanks for posting
does the tactics trainer on chess.com actually help?
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Feb 10, 2017
0
#83
Going back to the original topic:
Yes, it helps, BUT as you get better and higher rated, it starts helping less and less. Here's why:
*The hard problems are full of strange motifs that you'll never see, and should never expect to find given only 1 minute on the timer (the rated tactics are timed). The easier tactics are the more useful patterns to learn.
*Many tougher problems contain multiple lines that are winning, especially in endgames where a side is guaranteed to win, but the computer analysis just can't see it yet, because it will take many moves (but the result is practically guaranteed, again).
Most importantly, I would like to say that high tactics ratings *correlate* to high playing strength, but definitely do not cause it. Look at it this way: your TT rating is GUARANTEED to increase - even if you fail all the problems at your level, you'll eventually start getting duplicates, and you'll increase your rating automatically.
Maybe rating considering tactics attempted is a better metric for tactical strength. Nevertheless, I find TT not that great for improvement - a lot of things are better. But for the levels of many players here, it's very useful.
Feb 10, 2017
0
#84
Cherub_Enjel wrote:
Look at it this way: your TT rating is GUARANTEED to increase - even if you fail all the problems at your level, you'll eventually start getting duplicates, and you'll increase your rating automatically.
________________________________________________________________________
Sadly that is not at all the case, as one can easily see for oneself. I really did look into this. There are multitudes of people who have worked on tens of thousands of puzzles on TT, and still have a rating very near the default 1200 or even lower. That's because of the reasons I cited above. TT simply tells you how good you are at tactics already. Nothing more.
IpswichMatt wrote:
Interesting stuff Wuehler, thanks for posting
Thanks from me too.
Wuehler wrote:
urk wrote:
You train on tactics daily?
But not online?
What, the Polgar book?
You're just not impressed with TT here?
But not online?
What, the Polgar book?
You're just not impressed with TT here?
_____________________________________________________________________
Correct. I train tactics daily but not online.
Regarding TT, everyone starts with a tactics rating of 1200, yet the average rating of all who use TT is only 1147!
A similar low rating average is seen in OTB play. The average USCF ELO rating is roughly 1500. I think we can all agree that those aren't excellent showings. From this, one can conclude two different causes:
1. Chess/tactics is too difficult a subject for the average person of average intellect to become expert in, or
2. People are doing something wrong in their training methods.
I believe the latter is the case. The problem with TT is that, by default, it is set up to quiz you, rather than train you. Taking daily quizzes at anything doesn't improve your skills or knowledge. That's why college students don't take a lot of tests in preparation for a test. At the risk of sounding redundant, a test tests your knowledge, it doesn't impart knowledge; other than the knowledge of what it is you don't know.
Many also confuse puzzle solving with tactics training. Again, attempting to solve something is a form of testing. You're trying to see if you can figure out the puzzle. Either you can or you can't. However, you DO train something when you're attempting to solve a puzzle: you're training your ability to calculate; an important part of training, of course, but also an important distinction.
What, then, does constitute tactics training? Training implies repetition, doing the same thing over and over again until you think you were born with the ability.
Don't take my word for it. Hans Tikkanen is a Swedish GM who is also interested in the way humans learn. To reach his goal of becoming a GM he realized he needed to get much better at tactics and, based on what he knows about learning, he created a training program for himself. He began solving about 1000 fairly simple tactics problems. When he finished, he started all over again, using the same puzzles! When he finished a second time, he started a third, etc. The result: three GM norms and a 100 point rating increase the following year! He credits his training method for his success.
The Polgar book - Chess Tactics for Champions - is an excellent book to start with. For greater efficiency, I would recommend that you create a database where you store all your exercises according to theme. It is also important that you solve every puzzle in the correct manner. Here is an example:
When training tactics, study any puzzle for no more than two minutes. If you haven't solved it by then, simply look up the solution, set up the position on your board, and study the solution and why it works. By this I mean, try to figure out the real reason it works.
In the above example, White wins material because of a fork. True. But, it is not enough for you to simply see the maneuver, the fork, and move on to the next puzzle. No, you must try to understand why it really worked. Unless you're solving a puzzle with a one-move solution - a fork - there is usually another culprit that made the fork ultimately possible. It is this culprit you must seek to identify. Only then do you really understand the puzzle.
To apply this to the puzzle I've given, the reason there is a fork tactic possibility is the overworked pawn on f7. He's the real culprit of Black's demise. On the one hand he is defending the attacked bishop on e6, and on the other he is shielding his king against the bishop-winning check by the white queen from h5.
Only after you have realized this, should you move on to the next exercise. Do this for every puzzle every time, and, I can't stress this enough, verbally state to yourself out loud what is going on in the puzzle, as if you're explaining it to a student. Because you are! You're the student. Do this for an hour or two every dang day, and talk to me in one year's time and let me know if this works or not.
Definitely the most informative lesson since i started chess.
Do you teach anyone....could you teach me?
I need more stuff explained in plain english!
2Q1C wrote:
His lessons will entail
step 1) Download chessbot
step 2) Play only enough games to get a high rating but avoid detection
step 3) Give false advice to genuine new comers to the game and act like you know what you're on about.
I'll think i'll make my own decision up thanks
Feb 10, 2017
0
#88
2Q1C wrote:
His lessons will entail
step 1) Download chessbot
step 2) Play only enough games to get a high rating but avoid detection
step 3) Give false advice to genuine new comers to the game and act like you know what you're on about.
____________________________________________________________________
My little troll is back! And he's trying to heckle me...how cute 
Feb 10, 2017
0
#89
Pattern recognition, and maneuver, I think it helps a bit in getting better. Things we see in tactics come up again and again in chess games.
Feb 10, 2017
0
#90
2Q1C wrote:
His lessons will entail
step 1) Download chessbot
step 2) Play only enough games to get a high rating but avoid detection
step 3) Give false advice to genuine new comers to the game and act like you know what you're on about.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
I found a website where they can take anyone's image and then create a bobble head figurine from it. I'm going to take your profile image and have a number of bobble heads created. I will pass them out to my students in mockery for a particularly silly mistake. Thanks bud, you continue to entertain and serve a purpose
Feb 10, 2017
0
#91
UnderDog_Chess wrote:
Definitely the most informative lesson since i started chess.
Do you teach anyone....could you teach me?
I need more stuff explained in plain english!
________________________________________________________
Thanks. I do teach, although I don't consider it teaching, rather coaching. As a famous chess quote goes: "Nobody can teach you how to play better chess. You must learn it."
That's what I try to do as a coach or trainer, guiding you in your training. What this entails we can discuss further if you're interested. Send me a PM and tell me what you're looking for.
Feb 10, 2017
0
#92
2Q1C wrote:
Still not found out how to quote properly huh? I suppose engines don't do that for you.
_____________________________________________________________
Thanks for your concern. And how about you? Still not able to play chess well? I suppose only engines can do that for you. 
[COMMENT DELETED]
Feb 10, 2017
0
#94
Wuehler wrote:
Cherub_Enjel wrote:
Look at it this way: your TT rating is GUARANTEED to increase - even if you fail all the problems at your level, you'll eventually start getting duplicates, and you'll increase your rating automatically.
________________________________________________________________________
Sadly that is not at all the case, as one can easily see for oneself. I really did look into this. There are multitudes of people who have worked on tens of thousands of puzzles on TT, and still have a rating very near the default 1200 or even lower. That's because of the reasons I cited above. TT simply tells you how good you are at tactics already. Nothing more.
If that's true, then that's so sad! How can you keep failing the same puzzle over and over and over again?? And not get better at all after each one
2Q1C wrote:
UnderDog_Chess wrote:
2Q1C wrote:
His lessons will entail
step 1) Download chessbot
step 2) Play only enough games to get a high rating but avoid detection
step 3) Give false advice to genuine new comers to the game and act like you know what you're on about.
I'll think i'll make my own decision up thanks
"I'll" think you shouldn't be trusted to make your own decisions. I am acting as your caretaker or guardian on this matter. You don't have the mental capacity to make such choices so I shall make them for you.
Oh boy......I am a 43 year old man.......i have a masters degree in Music performance and a PhD in Music history. i have played in many of the top orchestras around the world and that has taken me to all corners of the world. i have played in many of the films scores that you hear at movies including all 3 star wars prequels (london symphony orchestra).
I'm married to a wonderful women and have two beautiful children.
I think i am quite capable of making a decision or two!
oh...my mental capacity is just fine.
Now, Wuehler can you give me chess lessons
Feb 10, 2017
0
#96
UnderDog_Chess wrote:
Oh boy......I am a 43 year old man.......i have a masters degree in Music performance and a PhD in Music history. i have played in many of the top orchestras around the world and that has taken me to all corners the world. i have played in many of the films scores that you hear at movies including all 3 star wars prequels (london symphony orchestra).
I'm married to a wonderful women and have two beautiful children.
I think i am quite capable of making a decision or two!
oh...my mental capacity is just fine.
Now, Wuehler can you give me chess lessons?
______________________________________________________________________________________
LOL, yes, I believe I can. I think it's best if we continue our conversation in private.
Feb 10, 2017
0
#97
Cherub_Enjel wrote:
Wuehler wrote:
Cherub_Enjel wrote:
Look at it this way: your TT rating is GUARANTEED to increase - even if you fail all the problems at your level, you'll eventually start getting duplicates, and you'll increase your rating automatically.
________________________________________________________________________
Sadly that is not at all the case, as one can easily see for oneself. I really did look into this. There are multitudes of people who have worked on tens of thousands of puzzles on TT, and still have a rating very near the default 1200 or even lower. That's because of the reasons I cited above. TT simply tells you how good you are at tactics already. Nothing more.
If that's true, then that's so sad! How can you keep failing the same puzzle over and over and over again?? And not get better at all after each one?
______________________________________________________________________________________
That's because they're NOT doing the same puzzle over and over again. TT trainer has thousands of puzzles for each rating and theme. While you eventually would see the same puzzle again, by the time you do, you may have seen hundreds or thousand of different ones with different themes in between. That's why people using this method don't improve much.
Wuehler wrote:
UnderDog_Chess wrote:
Oh boy......I am a 43 year old man.......i have a masters degree in Music performance and a PhD in Music history. i have played in many of the top orchestras around the world and that has taken me to all corners the world. i have played in many of the films scores that you hear at movies including all 3 star wars prequels (london symphony orchestra).
I'm married to a wonderful women and have two beautiful children.
I think i am quite capable of making a decision or two!
oh...my mental capacity is just fine.
Now, Wuehler can you give me chess lessons?
______________________________________________________________________________________
LOL, yes, I believe I can. I think it's best if we continue our conversation in private.
Feb 10, 2017
0
#99
2Q1C wrote:
Did you honestly just brag about having a phd in music?
____________________________________________________________________
Unlike you, at least he has an impressive résumé to brag about.
But not online?
What, the Polgar book?
You're just not impressed with TT here?
_____________________________________________________________________
Correct. I train tactics daily but not online.
Regarding TT, everyone starts with a tactics rating of 1200, yet the average rating of all who use TT is only 1147!
A similar low rating average is seen in OTB play. The average USCF ELO rating is roughly 1500. I think we can all agree that those aren't excellent showings. From this, one can conclude two different causes:
1. Chess/tactics is too difficult a subject for the average person of average intellect to become expert in, or
2. People are doing something wrong in their training methods.
I believe the latter is the case. The problem with TT is that, by default, it is set up to quiz you, rather than train you. Taking daily quizzes at anything doesn't improve your skills or knowledge. That's why college students don't take a lot of tests in preparation for a test. At the risk of sounding redundant, a test tests your knowledge, it doesn't impart knowledge; other than the knowledge of what it is you don't know.
Many also confuse puzzle solving with tactics training. Again, attempting to solve something is a form of testing. You're trying to see if you can figure out the puzzle. Either you can or you can't. However, you DO train something when you're attempting to solve a puzzle: you're training your ability to calculate; an important part of training, of course, but also an important distinction.
What, then, does constitute tactics training? Training implies repetition, doing the same thing over and over again until you think you were born with the ability.
Don't take my word for it. Hans Tikkanen is a Swedish GM who is also interested in the way humans learn. To reach his goal of becoming a GM he realized he needed to get much better at tactics and, based on what he knows about learning, he created a training program for himself. He began solving about 1000 fairly simple tactics problems. When he finished, he started all over again, using the same puzzles! When he finished a second time, he started a third, etc. The result: three GM norms and a 100 point rating increase the following year! He credits his training method for his success.
The Polgar book - Chess Tactics for Champions - is an excellent book to start with. For greater efficiency, I would recommend that you create a database where you store all your exercises according to theme. It is also important that you solve every puzzle in the correct manner. Here is an example:
When training tactics, study any puzzle for no more than two minutes. If you haven't solved it by then, simply look up the solution. Set up the position on your board, and study the solution and why it works. By this I mean, try to figure out the real reason it works.
In the above example, White wins material because of a fork. True. But, it is not enough for you to simply see the maneuver, the fork, and move on to the next puzzle. No, you must try to understand why it really worked. Unless you're solving a puzzle with a one-move solution - a fork - there is usually another culprit that made the fork ultimately possible. It is this culprit you must seek to identify. Only then do you really understand the puzzle.
To apply this to the puzzle I've given, the reason there is a fork tactic possibility is the overworked pawn on f7. He's the real culprit of Black's demise. On the one hand he is defending the attacked bishop on e6, and on the other hand he is shielding his king against the bishop-winning check by the white queen from h5.
Only after you have realized this, should you move on to the next exercise. Do this for every puzzle every time and, I can't stress this enough, verbally state to yourself out loud what is going on in the puzzle, as if you're explaining it to a student. Because you are! You're the student. Do this for an hour or two every dang day, and talk to me in one year's time and let me know if this works or not.