King_of_pawns wrote:
As with any chess game, it depends on who is white and who is black.
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Does white have more of an advantage than black?
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Jan 25, 2016
0
#23
There's a difference between a theoretical advantage and a practical advantage. The theoretical advantage is always there, the practical advantage is not.
Fiveofswords hat geschrieben:
its an objective advantage...but the stronger blacks repetoire is the more likely that you are simply going to have an equal position out of the opening. the weaker both players are the higher whites advantage is...its the complete opposite of what some people have claimed.
I am sure you can back that up with statistics. Let's say, compare how players rated 2400+ score based on colour to players rated 1800-.
dpnorman wrote:
SilentKnighte5 wrote:
Diakonia wrote:
At the elite level, yes the first move is somewhat of an advantage. At our level, no its not an advantage.
It's still an advantage, just not as much as GM level.
No, it's always an advantage. It's just that at lower levels, the players are less likely to make use of the advantage. It's still an advantage of the same magnitude.
^^ I agree with Dpnorman.
Jan 25, 2016
0
#26
I am also not a expert player but as my games I too have won with white rather than black
Record
| Wins | Losses | Draws | Games | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Total | 272 (48%) | 256 (45%) | 37 (7%) | 565 |
| White | 139 (50%) | 119 (43%) | 20 (7%) | 278 (49%) |
| Black | 129 (48%) | 123 (46%) | 17 (6%) | 269 (48%) |
The advantage of playing White increases as your strength as a player increases. At lower rating levels there may be little or no difference but as the statistics prove at high levels White has an advantage. It's all about Tempo's, when you study openings you see many references to gaining or losing a Tempo ie don't move a piece twice & as White has the 1st move he has a Tempo advantage ..... as long as he doesn't give it up with bad play.
Jan 25, 2016
0
#29
This is my record in online/daily chess:
I am ~1800 (though more usually closer to 1700). Even though that is the top ~3.5% percentile of this site it is still just a decent to quite good level amongst serious chess players, way way below expert.
I barely know any openings beyond the first handful of moves so I don't really have much of a repertoire with white or black.
That said, I am a regular King's Gambit player though so maybe if I didn't play that my score with white would be higher than with black!
So yeah, based on a sample of 1 I would say at the level I play at it makes very little difference and I'd be interested to know why it is considered to be a bigger advantage among players worse than me who have even less of a concept of opening theory and making full use of tempi.
dpnorman wrote:
SilentKnighte5 wrote:
Diakonia wrote:
At the elite level, yes the first move is somewhat of an advantage. At our level, no its not an advantage.
It's still an advantage, just not as much as GM level.
No, it's always an advantage. It's just that at lower levels, the players are less likely to make use of the advantage. It's still an advantage of the same magnitude.
You're not saying anything differently than I am.
Being unable to make use of an advantage and not having that advantage are different things @SilentKnighte5
If you believe white has an advanatge with the first move then i guess it helps psychologically. I have never gone into a round/game, thinking i wish i had white, because it simply doesnt matter. In fact, i prefer playing black. At the class level, i dont see how white has that much of an advanatge that it matters.
Carlsen basically gives up any advantage as white so he can avoid theory and just 'play a game of chess' and because his endgame technique in the age of no adjournments is better than anyone elses he can still win at a high rate. Its all relative....
Jan 25, 2016
0
#35
Funnily enough I often wish I was White when I am Black because I have never settled on a Black defence I am happy with. I dabbled with King pawn openings and Sicilian, but being too lazy and discouraged to actually learn deep theory I often just wish I was white instead despite it historically having given me no edge at all in longer time control games.
@jengalas Because he's Magnus Carlsen and inarguably the best player in the world. What do you expect?
I think this is hilarous!
People always believe Magnus Carlsen plays random moves in the opening on the fly lol.
To get a playable position so he can use his endgame skills to win the game.
If anyone believes such nonsense.
Than they are idiots.
Magnus Carlsen has the finest Opening Preparation in the World.
Every move/deviation he has ever made has been extremely well prepared.
People on this forum are in Opening Study denial.
It really is sick how people under cut Magnus Carlsen Opening Study and preparation.
I saw an review by Magnus during the last World Championship Match vs Vishy Anand.
In one of his games vs Anand he had used a mere like 3 mins or something during the match.
Vishy had used over 3/4ths of his allowed time.
People asked him in the interview why he had used so little time.
His response was he had already did opening preparation up until that point.
The position which he was refering to was 26 moves!
The game was entering the early part of the endgame for crying out loud.
People often forget that Magnus Carlsen had several different coaches during his life time.
One of them being Garry Kasparov.
Garry Kasparov as you know was a pupil of Mikhail botvinnik.
Not only was Mikhail Botvinnik a World Champion.
He also had famous pupils include World Champions Anatoly Karpov, Garry Kasparov and Vladimir Kramnik.
These people pride themselves on deep Opening preparation.
Extensive preparation!
They are monsters!
Jan 25, 2016
0
#38
Fiveofswords wrote:
im not a programmer but i think my point would be greatly supported if someone measured the performance of white in totally random bs random games. my hypothesis is that white would score much higher than normal in such a game.
That can easily be tested by downloading a copy of BrutusRND. It's a total random mover and can be installed as either UCI or WB2. Just install two copies of the engine, run them against each other, and count up the total White wins, Black wins, and draws. I can do this myself, but I have to let a current engine tournament finish up. I won't be able to start the BrutusRND tournament until tonight. (And I like to play a LOT of games before looking at the numbers.)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~vermeire/BrutusRND.rar
Edit - Well, I'm having problems running BrutusRND against itself. I don't know what the problem is, but the engines hang most of the time. Unless I solve the problem, it looks like I'd have to use some other random mover engine, and I'm not sure if another good one exists. Drats.
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:
I think this is hilarous!
People always believe Magnus Carlsen plays random moves in the opening on the fly lol.
To get a playable position so he can use his endgame skills to win the game.
If anyone believes such nonsense.
Than they are idiots.
Magnus Carlsen has the finest Opening Preparation in the World.
Every move/deviation he has ever made has been extremely well prepared.
People on this forum are in Opening Study denial.
It really is sick how people under cut Magnus Carlsen Opening Study and preparation.
I saw an review by Magnus during the last World Championship Match vs Vishy Anand.
In one of his games vs Anand he had used a mere like 3 mins or something during the match.
Vishy had used over 3/4ths of his allowed time.
People asked him in the interview why he had used so little time.
His response was he had already did opening preparation up until that point.
The position which he was refering to was 26 moves!
The game was entering the early part of the endgame for crying out loud.
People often forget that Magnus Carlsen had several different coaches during his life time.
One of them being Garry Kasparov.
Garry Kasparov as you know was a pupil of Mikhail botvinnik.
Not only was Mikhail Botvinnik a World Champion.
He also had famous pupils include World Champions Anatoly Karpov, Garry Kasparov and Vladimir Kramnik.
These people pride themselves on deep Opening preparation.
Extensive preparation!
They are monsters!
Carlsen plays lines that his opponent will not have looked at, that is as far as his 'preparation' extends. He played the Ponziani against Harikrishna in Wijk 2013 for goodness sake, nobody prepares anything against that.
Vease wrote:
Carlsen plays lines that his opponent will not have looked at, that is as far as his 'preparation' extends. He played the Ponziani against Harikrishna in Wijk 2013 for goodness sake, nobody prepares anything against that.
You miss the point.
The point I was making was Magnus Carlsen has some of the best opening study/preparation in the world.
Harikrishna would not be able to prepare against Magnus in the Ponziani because he wouldn't know Magnus is even playing it against him!
The "person" who is doing the preparation is "Magnus".
The Ponziani opening is not considered one of the greatest chess lines.
Which means Magnus would have to do extreme preparation when playing it.
At the elite level, yes the first move is somewhat of an advantage. At our level, no its not an advantage.
It's still an advantage, just not as much as GM level.
No, it's always an advantage. It's just that at lower levels, the players are less likely to make use of the advantage. It's still an advantage of the same magnitude.